8 ms·

Sounds like Germany, and it's not just public services. I used to work part-time in 1st level IT support in a local hospital when I was younger. The main "the

Sounds like Germany, and it's not just public services. I used to work part-time in 1st level IT support in a local hospital when I was younger. The main "theme" of my superior's work subjects there (2009-2016) was the migration from XP to 7. You heard that right. And apart from the usual Office- and AD-Lock-In, the most problematic workstations of course were always ones with very specialized software. Virtualization and terminal services were in use, but the whole selling point of Windows was mostly put ad absurdum already, because they needed Windows licenses for dedicated machines running e.g. specialized MRT software, but those weren't even part of the main network anyway. They needed arcane syncing procedures anyway and Windows provided no value whatsoever on these devices. Same for the patient monitoring systems on ICU beds. These were using some "embedded" Windows and were rarely working in a stable way at all, nor way they connected to the networks running AD or the CIS (edit: seems it's called HIS in English) CAD and stuff in the office divisions was similar, but with less integration needs (apart from network printing) What I'm trying to say is: like in many offices, any slight change made users hostile, updates cost obscene amounts of work and money, and Windows didn't provide much more value compared to SAMBA. That is dated experience, I know. But MS has not shown to be a trustworthy company in any of my work experience so far. It was impossible to create working solutions without MS, yes, but the reasons for that never seemed to be grounded in actual value provided by an MS-centric software and networking structure. It was just the one available commercial solution with enough adoption, and MS has been milking their target markets with these strategies for a very long time. Making themselves "indispensable", even in machines where their software was used to run a terminal server, basically. Hell, in my town, 3 years ago, they started to replace subway train LED signals with crappy Windows-CE-based software. The effects are still noticeable... the whole infrastructure is still 80% worse compared to 10 years ago. You recognize the useless Windows licenses by the occasional Desktop (seriously, google "cologne KVB windows trashcan"....), 90deg-tilted display, and of course 20% of the signage is out of operation on average now.

sampl3username 1y ago
I also had an encounter with government software... I think the long-lasting solution will be to move to a web-based application system, instead of depending on Desktop applications made for Windows or Linux. Using a web app system, the government only has to concern itself with proper development and maintenance of servers and web apps, and the public workers can use any operating system with a web browser.
- moritzwarhier 1y ago
  I agree with this. When it comes to domain-specific b2b software, pretty much everything that doesn't require native resources or performance inaccessible from the web platform should provide a web-based frontend (even if just as a minimum).
  - LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
    And that would be better why exactly? Bloated browsers trying to phone home, even if only to search for updates, or denying access because of overblocking DNS, false software security signatures, whatever? Ja. Klasse! I fucking know about Electron & Tauri. And V8, Node, Bun, TS. Hmmm so geil. Da steht mir der Schwanz steil. Oder auch einfach nur die Haare zu Berge. Waldmeisterlicher Wackelpudding. Ahoi.
- mananaysiempre 1y ago
  > the public workers can use any operating system with a web browser With IE6^W Chrome, you mean. Nobody’s going to bother testing on anything else.
  - johnisgood 1y ago
    I saw they use Linux and Firefox at our local hospital.
- jimbob45 1y ago
  Nothing says “long-lasting” like browser standards and front-end frameworks.
- snickerbockers 1y ago
  isn't TFA about how the problem is cloud-infrastructure? web-app will only make that worse unless you're thinking something like adobe air. Also, as others already noted, somehow the web is uniquely terrible at maintaining compatibility across not only different platforms but different versions of the same platform and even different versions of the same browser, despite being built largely on top of high-level languages that all claim to enable effortless portability.
LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
Go SWB, paint it green. Kölle Alaaf! Just kidding. Triggered some memories.
protocolture 1y ago
>What I'm trying to say is: like in many offices, any slight change made users hostile, I remember doing a Windows 7 deployment for a customer, and one of their staff had 3 A4 binders. Probably 1000 pages, of typed notes about how Windows XP works. The second she sat down at her new Windows 7 machine it was like she had lost her memory. She was instantly aggravated and couldnt find the start menu. Dropped her windows xp binders in the bin and told me to effectively "get lost" so she can relearn it from scratch. I was thrown. Like its basically the same system with some UI tweaks but she was acting like I had pushed her onto debian or something.
- MarkSweep 1y ago
  I’ve had a few family relations approach technology this way. I think it’s like they are missing a “theory of mind” for how software works. We have developed this intuition by either using or creating software for a long time. Like often people are scared to click random buttons or explore menus. We have used software for a long time, so we know that any destructive act would be proceeded by an “are you sure?” dialog box. I think I would be in their shoes if I ever tried to change the oil on my car. I may be able to follow a procedure. But I would not deviate from it. It would not try to pop the covers off unrelated parts to peek into the alternator, for fear of electric shock. Anyways, my rambling point is ideally we people would make themselves more familiar with how to understand the technology they work with everyday. But we should have empathy for people who have not contorted their minds to understand the peculiar behavior of software.
  - jact 1y ago
    Yes, this is extremely accurate. Many people are very afraid to explore or experiment with any software program out of fear of breaking things.
    - xwolfi 1y ago
      Because when they break things they lose hours of work they cannot afford to lose. My parents had a small business and if my mom mis-clicked somewhere and deleted some important thing, she would enter a panicked rage as she'd lose half the day with some remote tech support. She would never touch a computer after work, because it just stressed her, she found them absolutely unbearable, also because the tech support was unbearably obnoxious.
toodleoo 1y ago
I’ve come to find that change is not always good, and resistance to change can be good for those that resist. For example, our German team knew the software that headquarters was going to deploy to them was broken, so they secretly continued to use their old existing process. When the new software was deployed “successfully”, the same software was then deployed in the U.S. and broke horribly. The Germans were told that their responsibility was their region (only), so they literally took care of themselves and refused to be forced to be the guinea pigs. In addition, I’ve come to learn not to immediately upgrade my OS at work, if I can help it. Typically, being an early adopter means you can get some nasty bugs that sometimes can take days to figure out. No thanks.
- Huppie 1y ago
  Got a work machine upgraded to Win11 recently... I held out as long as possible but in the end had to upgrade because support will be dropped. My biggest daily frustration is that Microsoft dropped support for putting the taskbar anywhere other than the bottom...
edwcross 1y ago
> seriously, google "cologne KVB windows trashcan" I did, and didn't get any relevant results. I had to google "koeln kVB windows papierkorb" to get several photos with screenshots of such screens.
- moritzwarhier 1y ago
  makes sense, thanks, localized results got me here.
- Y_Y 1y ago
  Seriously, just link the image! https://verliebtinkoeln.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/KVB-Papierkorb-1024x536.jpg https://verliebtinkoeln.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/KVB-P...
  - moritzwarhier 1y ago
    Funny thing is, this was not a one-time occurrence at all. Unfortunately, I didn't keep my personal photo around. Here are two more... no hotlinks as I'm on mobile and web Reddit + iOS apparently have upped their annoyances to prevent copying image urls in Safari, and I won't bother more rn: https://www.reddit.com/r/de/comments/o5g06k/k%C3%B6ln/ https://www.reddit.com/r/de/comments/o5g06k/k%C3%B6ln/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cologne/comments/psfkhn/kvb_digital_mvp/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cologne/comments/psfkhn/kvb_digital...
  - robotnikman 1y ago
    Wow, that picture really puts the size of the cologne cathedral into perspective.

sampl3username 1y ago

I also had an encounter with government software... I think the long-lasting solution will be to move to a web-based application system, instead of depending on Desktop applications made for Windows or Linux. Using a web app system, the government only has to concern itself with proper development and maintenance of servers and web apps, and the public workers can use any operating system with a web browser.

moritzwarhier 1y ago
I agree with this. When it comes to domain-specific b2b software, pretty much everything that doesn't require native resources or performance inaccessible from the web platform should provide a web-based frontend (even if just as a minimum).
- LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
  And that would be better why exactly? Bloated browsers trying to phone home, even if only to search for updates, or denying access because of overblocking DNS, false software security signatures, whatever? Ja. Klasse! I fucking know about Electron & Tauri. And V8, Node, Bun, TS. Hmmm so geil. Da steht mir der Schwanz steil. Oder auch einfach nur die Haare zu Berge. Waldmeisterlicher Wackelpudding. Ahoi.
mananaysiempre 1y ago
> the public workers can use any operating system with a web browser With IE6^W Chrome, you mean. Nobody’s going to bother testing on anything else.
- johnisgood 1y ago
  I saw they use Linux and Firefox at our local hospital.
jimbob45 1y ago
Nothing says “long-lasting” like browser standards and front-end frameworks.
snickerbockers 1y ago
isn't TFA about how the problem is cloud-infrastructure? web-app will only make that worse unless you're thinking something like adobe air. Also, as others already noted, somehow the web is uniquely terrible at maintaining compatibility across not only different platforms but different versions of the same platform and even different versions of the same browser, despite being built largely on top of high-level languages that all claim to enable effortless portability.

LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago

Go SWB, paint it green. Kölle Alaaf! Just kidding. Triggered some memories.

protocolture 1y ago

>What I'm trying to say is: like in many offices, any slight change made users hostile, I remember doing a Windows 7 deployment for a customer, and one of their staff had 3 A4 binders. Probably 1000 pages, of typed notes about how Windows XP works. The second she sat down at her new Windows 7 machine it was like she had lost her memory. She was instantly aggravated and couldnt find the start menu. Dropped her windows xp binders in the bin and told me to effectively "get lost" so she can relearn it from scratch. I was thrown. Like its basically the same system with some UI tweaks but she was acting like I had pushed her onto debian or something.

MarkSweep 1y ago
I’ve had a few family relations approach technology this way. I think it’s like they are missing a “theory of mind” for how software works. We have developed this intuition by either using or creating software for a long time. Like often people are scared to click random buttons or explore menus. We have used software for a long time, so we know that any destructive act would be proceeded by an “are you sure?” dialog box. I think I would be in their shoes if I ever tried to change the oil on my car. I may be able to follow a procedure. But I would not deviate from it. It would not try to pop the covers off unrelated parts to peek into the alternator, for fear of electric shock. Anyways, my rambling point is ideally we people would make themselves more familiar with how to understand the technology they work with everyday. But we should have empathy for people who have not contorted their minds to understand the peculiar behavior of software.
- jact 1y ago
  Yes, this is extremely accurate. Many people are very afraid to explore or experiment with any software program out of fear of breaking things.
  - xwolfi 1y ago
    Because when they break things they lose hours of work they cannot afford to lose. My parents had a small business and if my mom mis-clicked somewhere and deleted some important thing, she would enter a panicked rage as she'd lose half the day with some remote tech support. She would never touch a computer after work, because it just stressed her, she found them absolutely unbearable, also because the tech support was unbearably obnoxious.

toodleoo 1y ago

I’ve come to find that change is not always good, and resistance to change can be good for those that resist. For example, our German team knew the software that headquarters was going to deploy to them was broken, so they secretly continued to use their old existing process. When the new software was deployed “successfully”, the same software was then deployed in the U.S. and broke horribly. The Germans were told that their responsibility was their region (only), so they literally took care of themselves and refused to be forced to be the guinea pigs. In addition, I’ve come to learn not to immediately upgrade my OS at work, if I can help it. Typically, being an early adopter means you can get some nasty bugs that sometimes can take days to figure out. No thanks.

Huppie 1y ago
Got a work machine upgraded to Win11 recently... I held out as long as possible but in the end had to upgrade because support will be dropped. My biggest daily frustration is that Microsoft dropped support for putting the taskbar anywhere other than the bottom...

edwcross 1y ago

> seriously, google "cologne KVB windows trashcan" I did, and didn't get any relevant results. I had to google "koeln kVB windows papierkorb" to get several photos with screenshots of such screens.

moritzwarhier 1y ago
makes sense, thanks, localized results got me here.
Y_Y 1y ago
Seriously, just link the image! https://verliebtinkoeln.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/KVB-Papierkorb-1024x536.jpg https://verliebtinkoeln.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/KVB-P...
- moritzwarhier 1y ago
  Funny thing is, this was not a one-time occurrence at all. Unfortunately, I didn't keep my personal photo around. Here are two more... no hotlinks as I'm on mobile and web Reddit + iOS apparently have upped their annoyances to prevent copying image urls in Safari, and I won't bother more rn: https://www.reddit.com/r/de/comments/o5g06k/k%C3%B6ln/ https://www.reddit.com/r/de/comments/o5g06k/k%C3%B6ln/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cologne/comments/psfkhn/kvb_digital_mvp/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cologne/comments/psfkhn/kvb_digital...
- robotnikman 1y ago
  Wow, that picture really puts the size of the cologne cathedral into perspective.