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You are just listing the laws that the UN (an unelected self-proclaimed authority) already has planned. But living in a highly legislated society, is not advan

You are just listing the laws that the UN (an unelected self-proclaimed authority) already has planned. But living in a highly legislated society, is not advancing anything for individuals - people will be far less free. Lots of legislation is the wrong direction for those who value quality of life.

ako 1y ago
That is just nonsense, most people would enjoy living in a society with the right legislation much more than a society with no legislation. How are you less free if there’s no genocide, nor invasions? To me it feels you’re just thoughtlessly repeating nonsense produced by rightwing America.
- nradov 1y ago
  The USA hasn't had any invasions or genocides lately. That's probably why so many foreigners want to immigrate here.
- verisimi 1y ago
  Legislating against genocide or whatever, doesn't make it so. What you have is a society with lots of legislation. Lots of well-meaning legislation has a genuine negative impact on people daily. Think about queues in airports because of terrorists, or traffic cameras, or - the issue we have at present - the developments towards de-anonymising the internet because of children, terrorists. Legislation has a cost. One has to wonder whether the 'side effects' of legislation were actually the intended effects, and that the main target the legislation was intended to solve was merely an excuse. Edited for clarity.
Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago
> But living in a highly legislated society, is not advancing anything for individuals - people will be far less free. Legislation against polluting, for example, gives you the freedom to swim lakes and rivers and eat their fish without getting poisoned. Or to breathe the air without it destroying your lungs. Regulations can give the freedom to not have financial industries 'fee' you to death. Laws can be to used ensure that you have the freedom to push back against the many other encroachments that powerful companies and corporations will always be grabbing for. In fact its our only defense. You look at laws as restricting individuals, and while that is sometimes the case, their real power is restricting and holding back the worst behaviors of tech companies, factories, banks, insurance companies, tele-service providers, mega-retail chains, property owners, health service providers and all the other key components that make our society run. If they have free reign to do whatever whenever, they will inevitably consolidate, monopolize, and then use that power to squeeze every last bit of an individual's freedom. Not just because they could set any arbitrary pricing (see drug companies), but also dictate behaviors through TOS. All of this will be for their benefit only, at the expense of your freedom. We need all of these industries to make everything work, but without laws and regulations, things can pretty dystopian for the freedom of the average individual. The heads of these industries will be doing great though, so there's that.
- verisimi 1y ago
  Honestly, I read this and feel confused. You don't need legislation to swim or eat fish. In a real way, the legislation sanctions a certain level of poisoning to be acceptable. How much fluoride in water, zinc or metals in food, can we 'fortify' food with iron filings and chalk (calcium). The problem you seem to miss, is that the legislation is already written in favour of the corporations and government in the first place. It is not about the citizens, it just has to appear that way for people to buy into it. Corporations already have free reign to act as they like - mobile phones are essentially government id at this point - the governance system is delighted that they have access to your private information. There is no concern with protecting people from the worst corporate actions. Corporations are already monopolies, and this is fine. The legislation is already corporate and merely pays lip service to citizens/consumers - it's there to to provides cover for corporates, as well as providing other benefits, such as creating huge barriers to entry via licensing, etc.
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago
    You're not wrong about corporations crafting legislation in their interest, this exists, and continues to happen. I was responding to the view that 'government is the problem, laws hurt individual freedom - therefore all laws are bad' sentiment. Its an idea that is spread by these very same corporations to gain support for getting rid of the laws that bind them. Like why have any level at all for how much benzene I can dump in this lake? I should be able to dump all the benzene there. Get rid of the EPA because freedom is at stake! The government and the laws it can pass and enforce is regular peoples only protection against this power. We need to start using it again.
  - ivape 1y ago
    If you want to keep a house painted white, you have to keep painting it white. Society does get more progressive and ethical, but it's only one coat of paint. America had a real fresh coat of paint after the Civil War, Civil Rights, and progressive reform movements of the early 20th century. The things you are mentioning is the in between periods between new coats of paint. We're sort of due for one. And, yes, that coat of paint will start to look yellow and chipped too, where you'll notice all the failed promises.
bawolff 1y ago
> You are just listing the laws that the UN (an unelected self-proclaimed authority) already has planned. The UN doesn't make laws, it just brings countries together to talk things through and maybe make treaties together. But in the end its always individual countries making the laws†. † im skipping over the unsc's power to make binding rulings under international law because i dont think that is the type of law you mean. Groups that are part of the UN like the ICJ and ILC have a role in determining intl law, but they more eludicate it, they dont make it.

ako 1y ago

That is just nonsense, most people would enjoy living in a society with the right legislation much more than a society with no legislation. How are you less free if there’s no genocide, nor invasions? To me it feels you’re just thoughtlessly repeating nonsense produced by rightwing America.

nradov 1y ago
The USA hasn't had any invasions or genocides lately. That's probably why so many foreigners want to immigrate here.
verisimi 1y ago
Legislating against genocide or whatever, doesn't make it so. What you have is a society with lots of legislation. Lots of well-meaning legislation has a genuine negative impact on people daily. Think about queues in airports because of terrorists, or traffic cameras, or - the issue we have at present - the developments towards de-anonymising the internet because of children, terrorists. Legislation has a cost. One has to wonder whether the 'side effects' of legislation were actually the intended effects, and that the main target the legislation was intended to solve was merely an excuse. Edited for clarity.

Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago

> But living in a highly legislated society, is not advancing anything for individuals - people will be far less free. Legislation against polluting, for example, gives you the freedom to swim lakes and rivers and eat their fish without getting poisoned. Or to breathe the air without it destroying your lungs. Regulations can give the freedom to not have financial industries 'fee' you to death. Laws can be to used ensure that you have the freedom to push back against the many other encroachments that powerful companies and corporations will always be grabbing for. In fact its our only defense. You look at laws as restricting individuals, and while that is sometimes the case, their real power is restricting and holding back the worst behaviors of tech companies, factories, banks, insurance companies, tele-service providers, mega-retail chains, property owners, health service providers and all the other key components that make our society run. If they have free reign to do whatever whenever, they will inevitably consolidate, monopolize, and then use that power to squeeze every last bit of an individual's freedom. Not just because they could set any arbitrary pricing (see drug companies), but also dictate behaviors through TOS. All of this will be for their benefit only, at the expense of your freedom. We need all of these industries to make everything work, but without laws and regulations, things can pretty dystopian for the freedom of the average individual. The heads of these industries will be doing great though, so there's that.

verisimi 1y ago
Honestly, I read this and feel confused. You don't need legislation to swim or eat fish. In a real way, the legislation sanctions a certain level of poisoning to be acceptable. How much fluoride in water, zinc or metals in food, can we 'fortify' food with iron filings and chalk (calcium). The problem you seem to miss, is that the legislation is already written in favour of the corporations and government in the first place. It is not about the citizens, it just has to appear that way for people to buy into it. Corporations already have free reign to act as they like - mobile phones are essentially government id at this point - the governance system is delighted that they have access to your private information. There is no concern with protecting people from the worst corporate actions. Corporations are already monopolies, and this is fine. The legislation is already corporate and merely pays lip service to citizens/consumers - it's there to to provides cover for corporates, as well as providing other benefits, such as creating huge barriers to entry via licensing, etc.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago
  You're not wrong about corporations crafting legislation in their interest, this exists, and continues to happen. I was responding to the view that 'government is the problem, laws hurt individual freedom - therefore all laws are bad' sentiment. Its an idea that is spread by these very same corporations to gain support for getting rid of the laws that bind them. Like why have any level at all for how much benzene I can dump in this lake? I should be able to dump all the benzene there. Get rid of the EPA because freedom is at stake! The government and the laws it can pass and enforce is regular peoples only protection against this power. We need to start using it again.
- ivape 1y ago
  If you want to keep a house painted white, you have to keep painting it white. Society does get more progressive and ethical, but it's only one coat of paint. America had a real fresh coat of paint after the Civil War, Civil Rights, and progressive reform movements of the early 20th century. The things you are mentioning is the in between periods between new coats of paint. We're sort of due for one. And, yes, that coat of paint will start to look yellow and chipped too, where you'll notice all the failed promises.

bawolff 1y ago

> You are just listing the laws that the UN (an unelected self-proclaimed authority) already has planned. The UN doesn't make laws, it just brings countries together to talk things through and maybe make treaties together. But in the end its always individual countries making the laws†. † im skipping over the unsc's power to make binding rulings under international law because i dont think that is the type of law you mean. Groups that are part of the UN like the ICJ and ILC have a role in determining intl law, but they more eludicate it, they dont make it.