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Where I came from (rural and very conservative) everyone is 100% against IVF and frankly, religion aside, I'm not sure it's good. There are certainly ways to ab
by msgodel 1y ago
Where I came from (rural and very conservative) everyone is 100% against IVF and frankly, religion aside, I'm not sure it's good. There are certainly ways to abuse it and there's a certain kind of person it's popular with.
- nkrisc 1y ago> there's a certain kind of person it's popular with. People who have trouble naturally conceiving a child?
- mousethatroared 1y agoPeople who want a particular type of child.
- throwaway7783 1y agoYeah, this is throwing the baby with the bathwater. I am with you, if you are talking about "designer babies" etc. A basic Google search will tell us about studies where vast majority of Americans are okay with even gene editing, to prevent diseases, but not for performance enhancements. It is a tool, like guns, bombs and medicine.
- mousethatroared 1y agoMost Americans are OK with many things, that doesn't make them right or wrong. I'm OK with being alone, that doesn't make me right or wrong. It does mean I have courage of conviction though.
- throwaway7783 1y agoSocial norms are made when most people are okay with something. It's got nothing to do with right or wrong. Not agreeing with something maybe because of courage, cowardice, nonchalance or anything else.
- mousethatroared 1y agoSocial norms are not objective truths. Social norms include racism, sexism, antisemitism, etc. Openly disagreeing with the in-group cannot be nonchalance, almost by definition (if you don't care, why bother having an opinion?), and it can't be cowardice if the issue matters.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- throwaway7783 1y agoIt is going to be very hard to define what is objective truth and what is not. is "people deserve to have kids" objective truth or "the inversion - kids deserve parents" the objective truth? Everything is driven by or influenced by social norms, right or wrong. I was just listing a few reason - perhaps in this case religion?
- bpodgursky 1y agoI don't believe you. Where did you come from?
- throwaway7783 1y agoLike what and like who? You don't think people who cannot naturally conceive deserve to have kids? Or something else?
- mousethatroared 1y agoNo one deserves kids. Kids are not goods to buy off a shelf. Rather kids deserve parents. It's literally an inversion.
- throwaway7783 1y agoIf you are equating conceiving children with IVF to goods to be bought off the shelf, there is really nothing to talk about. Having biological kids is a hard-wired instinct, and one of the very basic survival-of-the-genes things. I have no idea what you mean by kids deserving parents. There are no kids without parents to begin with.
- mousethatroared 1y agoA lot of things are "hard wired" and yet we expect people to control themselves. Men's sexual drive, for example, is tuned to fairly rapey if not for a "patriarchal" society that crushes this drive through the threat of a girls father beating a boy to a pulp. Stats are pretty clear here too wrt sex workers and their relationship to their fathers. And IVF is a tragedy of rented wombs, unfulfilled motherhood dreams, expensive and painful surgeries almost exclusively brunt by women whilst profited by men. But I'm not worried. A society that inverts the child-parent merit is one whose open loop gain is less than one. It's pretty obvious why: those who think children are deserved are unlikely to have the ability of self-sacrifice to want more than the one, maybe two kids.
- throwaway7783 1y agoI think I will respectfully disagree and stop at that. There are a lot of assumptions and statements mentioned as absolute truths in your response. Children are celebrated. Rape is abhorred. I have no idea what you mean by IVF is rented wombs and profited by men. Are you confusing IVF to surrogacy?