5 ms·

Only the extreme fringe is willing to go to bat against IVF. Maybe 10%.

basisword 1y ago
I think it's higher than that. The Catholic Church is against IVF. Although not all its followers will stick to all its teachings a significant number will.
- olddustytrail 1y ago
  It's not dogma, it's just advice. And I think the vast majority of people would just ignore it. Frankly, advice on having children from celibate men doesn't need special consideration from women. I say this as someone who was at least raised Catholic and still has an affection for the faith.
  - svieira 1y ago
    It is in fact dogma that IVF is forbidden to Catholics (see Humanae Vitae #12 and the Catechism #2376) https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/docume... https://www.vatican.va/content/catechism/en/part_three/section_two/chapter_two/article_6/iii_the_love_of_husband_and_wife.html https://www.vatican.va/content/catechism/en/part_three/secti...
    - olddustytrail 1y ago
      Neither of those are dogma.
      - mousethatroared 1y ago
        Strictly speaking no, dogma has a very specific definition and refers to things of a theological nature like the dogma of the Immaculate Conception which 90% of American Catholics wouldn't get right (most would answer that it refers to the virgin conception of Jesus). That doesn't mean the Church's teaching isn't final and binding.
        olddustytrail 1y ago
        It absolutely means that. If you are a Catholic and believe that a church teaching is wrong, you have a duty to speak up and dispute it. Teachings can be reversed and they are absolutely not binding. These disputes are supposed to be done in humility with the assumption that the church is probably right, but that's pretty much the same as arguing with Linux kernel devs...
        basisword 1y ago
        Given the discarding of some embryos it would seem pretty clearly against Catholic teaching no?
        olddustytrail 1y ago
        I think it discards eggs, not embryos, but I'm not an expert. At any rate it still is guidance not dogma.
      - svieira 1y ago
        You are absolutely correct! (Apologies, should have double checked before posting). It is in fact doctrine, not dogma: https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-the-difference-between-doctrine-and-dogma https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-the-difference-between-d...
msgodel 1y ago
Where I came from (rural and very conservative) everyone is 100% against IVF and frankly, religion aside, I'm not sure it's good. There are certainly ways to abuse it and there's a certain kind of person it's popular with.
- nkrisc 1y ago
  > there's a certain kind of person it's popular with. People who have trouble naturally conceiving a child?
  - mousethatroared 1y ago
    People who want a particular type of child.
    - throwaway7783 1y ago
      Yeah, this is throwing the baby with the bathwater. I am with you, if you are talking about "designer babies" etc. A basic Google search will tell us about studies where vast majority of Americans are okay with even gene editing, to prevent diseases, but not for performance enhancements. It is a tool, like guns, bombs and medicine.
      - mousethatroared 1y ago
        Most Americans are OK with many things, that doesn't make them right or wrong. I'm OK with being alone, that doesn't make me right or wrong. It does mean I have courage of conviction though.
        throwaway7783 1y ago
        Social norms are made when most people are okay with something. It's got nothing to do with right or wrong. Not agreeing with something maybe because of courage, cowardice, nonchalance or anything else.

I think it's higher than that. The Catholic Church is against IVF. Although not all its followers will stick to all its teachings a significant number will.

olddustytrail 1y ago
It's not dogma, it's just advice. And I think the vast majority of people would just ignore it. Frankly, advice on having children from celibate men doesn't need special consideration from women. I say this as someone who was at least raised Catholic and still has an affection for the faith.
- svieira 1y ago
  It is in fact dogma that IVF is forbidden to Catholics (see Humanae Vitae #12 and the Catechism #2376) https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/docume... https://www.vatican.va/content/catechism/en/part_three/section_two/chapter_two/article_6/iii_the_love_of_husband_and_wife.html https://www.vatican.va/content/catechism/en/part_three/secti...
  - olddustytrail 1y ago
    Neither of those are dogma.
    - mousethatroared 1y ago
      Strictly speaking no, dogma has a very specific definition and refers to things of a theological nature like the dogma of the Immaculate Conception which 90% of American Catholics wouldn't get right (most would answer that it refers to the virgin conception of Jesus). That doesn't mean the Church's teaching isn't final and binding.
      - olddustytrail 1y ago
        It absolutely means that. If you are a Catholic and believe that a church teaching is wrong, you have a duty to speak up and dispute it. Teachings can be reversed and they are absolutely not binding. These disputes are supposed to be done in humility with the assumption that the church is probably right, but that's pretty much the same as arguing with Linux kernel devs...
        basisword 1y ago
        Given the discarding of some embryos it would seem pretty clearly against Catholic teaching no?
        olddustytrail 1y ago
        I think it discards eggs, not embryos, but I'm not an expert. At any rate it still is guidance not dogma.
    - svieira 1y ago
      You are absolutely correct! (Apologies, should have double checked before posting). It is in fact doctrine, not dogma: https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-the-difference-between-doctrine-and-dogma https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-is-the-difference-between-d...

msgodel 1y ago

Where I came from (rural and very conservative) everyone is 100% against IVF and frankly, religion aside, I'm not sure it's good. There are certainly ways to abuse it and there's a certain kind of person it's popular with.

nkrisc 1y ago
> there's a certain kind of person it's popular with. People who have trouble naturally conceiving a child?
- mousethatroared 1y ago
  People who want a particular type of child.
  - throwaway7783 1y ago
    Yeah, this is throwing the baby with the bathwater. I am with you, if you are talking about "designer babies" etc. A basic Google search will tell us about studies where vast majority of Americans are okay with even gene editing, to prevent diseases, but not for performance enhancements. It is a tool, like guns, bombs and medicine.
    - mousethatroared 1y ago
      Most Americans are OK with many things, that doesn't make them right or wrong. I'm OK with being alone, that doesn't make me right or wrong. It does mean I have courage of conviction though.
      - throwaway7783 1y ago
        Social norms are made when most people are okay with something. It's got nothing to do with right or wrong. Not agreeing with something maybe because of courage, cowardice, nonchalance or anything else.