6 ms·

Linus is not a man-baby. He’s an actual man. This is what a man looks like- he stands up for users and the integrity of the product with force, even at the risk

Linus is not a man-baby. He’s an actual man. This is what a man looks like- he stands up for users and the integrity of the product with force, even at the risk of being called man-baby by someone over a decade later.

sschnei8 1y ago
You can “stand up for users and the integrity of the product” without telling someone to SHUT THE FUCK UP
- _101 1y ago
  You’re generalizing expectations for an average human and trying to apply it to an human with extraordinary responsibilities. It takes an incredibly strong hand to lead a team whose product is the operating system of most of the Internet. Do you think Jobs, Bezos, or Gates would say, “Hey guy. I respect you, man, and you write great code. I think we should work together to solve this. Are you cool with that? Maybe we can grab a latte.” No, they didn’t do that shit. Pretending you’re their HR manager and get to tell them what’s acceptable doesn’t make you equal or better than them. People have faults, but you can’t get on your high horse picking on them when you’re using their shit everyday.
  - komali2 1y ago
    This is a toxic masculinity form of mythology that ignores reams of historical evidence of effective ways of leading people. If you want a good bibliography, check out the sources of any Dale Carnegie book. He went through letters, journals, biographies, and writings of leaders as far back as the ancient Greeks. His conclusion is the opposite of the one you're making here. The best leaders lift people up, not shout people down. Others here discuss absurdities like drill instructors. None of us work on a battlefield, none of us are in life or death situations here. We're talking about leading people in labor. It's basically a solved problem, but for some reason people keep needing to debate the effectiveness of "tough love" approaches. It baffles me.
    - dzhiurgis 1y ago
      > None of us work on a battlefield Startups are absolutely like battlefields. Maybe even worse since you can't die.
      - exe34 1y ago
        Get real! On a battlefield, if you stop fighting you get shot. In a startup, if you stop fighting you can go and start a new life.
      - komali2 1y ago
        Please, please be saying this ironically. If not I say this out of genuine concern for a fellow forum member: never say this to anyone in real life, you'll be mocked relentlessly. Give a friend a pack of firecrackers and tell him to pop one off directly next to your ear randomly for a week. See if it feels anything like even your worse day at a startup. Combat is so traumatic you can see the physiological changes in people's brains.
        dzhiurgis 1y ago
        This was obviously a satire...
        komali2 1y ago
        The internet has broken me, I apologize.
    - inemesitaffia 1y ago
      Masculinity is fine in all it's forms.
      - exe34 1y ago
        Being a dick isn't masculinity though. In fact the Inuits consider it childish. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/685533353/a-playful-way-to-teach-kids-to-control-their-anger https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/6855333... Anger is a feeling, it's internal. Reacting externally with anger is a choice to be a dick. If you can't tell the difference, you have some growing up to do. Linus did.
dolebirchwood 1y ago
There is a tendency among conflict-avoidant people to lionize "keeping cool" as a moral virtue. This strategy of putting passionate (yet justifiable) anger to shame ensures there is minimal rocking of the boat, thereby allowing all aboard to sit peacefully with smiles on their faces as the ship sinks due to their own negligence and dereliction.
- komali2 1y ago
  Do you believe conflict resolution requires telling someone to "shut the fuck up" in all caps and then insult their abilities as an engineer? Do you believe this is the most effective method of conflict resolution that doesn't involve "rolling over?" Personally I think Dale Carnegie cracked that nut nearly a century ago and had the research of many great figures in history to back it up. If you haven't read "How to Win Friends," spoilers: he never suggests screaming someone out of a room.
  - itsthecourier 1y ago
    SHUT THE DUCK UP, KOMALI /s
  - dolebirchwood 1y ago
    Do you believe Linus was interested in "winning a friend" in that conversation?
    - komali2 1y ago
      I agree that the book's title is a bit old fashioned. The other half of the title is "...and Influence People," though. Surely Linus is interested in influencing people, effectively? Surely he's interested in being an effective leader? I'll answer for you: yes, he is, and also yes he believes this screaming version of him was wrong to be so cruel and abrasive: https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 If Linus is trying to grow out of the emotional outburst version of himself I don't understand why people continue to try to defend it. The man himself now believes it's the wrong way to be.
komali2 1y ago
This is interesting to me because usually the attitude on this forum is that emotions get in the way of rational behavior and thought. Of course we're all different people but I've noticed that trend. The more Spock, the better, at least in technical fields and debate. Yet that goes away as soon as it becomes time to defend Linus Torvalds. Then it's "actually his emotional outbursts are rational and necessary." I hate to say it but I've always wondered how different the attitude towards Linus would be if everything about him and his history was the same, except, he was a woman. If your gut reaction is to defend him because he's so clearly a once in a generation engineer and very smart, remember, the even more experienced and wise version of him has disavowed this earlier, emotional outburst version of him: https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 Why defend behavior that he himself has agreed is indefensible?
- _101 1y ago
  I’d defend the hell out of Linus as a woman.
  - grosswait 1y ago
    Seconded. Makes no difference
    - komali2 1y ago
      Well great, you two are good people. I recommend searching through the mailing list and forums for when Sarah (now Sage) Sharp was recommending a code of conduct and pushing back on people for being brutes. Many were opining along the lines of Sharp was just a girl that couldn't take the heat, was trying to make the FOSS world all fluffy rainbows etc. Strong evidence that girl Linus wouldn't haven't had the same amount of success and his emotional outbursts would have been seen very differently by the community, despite us three staunch defenders. Linus' whole come to Jesus and apology was kicked off by that and the code of conduct saga, which was predicated on the fact that 98% of kernel developers were men. I think we can agree it'd be naive, despite us three not being misogynists, to believe that the community wouldn't construe girl Linus' outbursts as hysterical?

sschnei8 1y ago

You can “stand up for users and the integrity of the product” without telling someone to SHUT THE FUCK UP

_101 1y ago
You’re generalizing expectations for an average human and trying to apply it to an human with extraordinary responsibilities. It takes an incredibly strong hand to lead a team whose product is the operating system of most of the Internet. Do you think Jobs, Bezos, or Gates would say, “Hey guy. I respect you, man, and you write great code. I think we should work together to solve this. Are you cool with that? Maybe we can grab a latte.” No, they didn’t do that shit. Pretending you’re their HR manager and get to tell them what’s acceptable doesn’t make you equal or better than them. People have faults, but you can’t get on your high horse picking on them when you’re using their shit everyday.
- komali2 1y ago
  This is a toxic masculinity form of mythology that ignores reams of historical evidence of effective ways of leading people. If you want a good bibliography, check out the sources of any Dale Carnegie book. He went through letters, journals, biographies, and writings of leaders as far back as the ancient Greeks. His conclusion is the opposite of the one you're making here. The best leaders lift people up, not shout people down. Others here discuss absurdities like drill instructors. None of us work on a battlefield, none of us are in life or death situations here. We're talking about leading people in labor. It's basically a solved problem, but for some reason people keep needing to debate the effectiveness of "tough love" approaches. It baffles me.
  - dzhiurgis 1y ago
    > None of us work on a battlefield Startups are absolutely like battlefields. Maybe even worse since you can't die.
    - exe34 1y ago
      Get real! On a battlefield, if you stop fighting you get shot. In a startup, if you stop fighting you can go and start a new life.
    - komali2 1y ago
      Please, please be saying this ironically. If not I say this out of genuine concern for a fellow forum member: never say this to anyone in real life, you'll be mocked relentlessly. Give a friend a pack of firecrackers and tell him to pop one off directly next to your ear randomly for a week. See if it feels anything like even your worse day at a startup. Combat is so traumatic you can see the physiological changes in people's brains.
      - dzhiurgis 1y ago
        This was obviously a satire...
        komali2 1y ago
        The internet has broken me, I apologize.
  - inemesitaffia 1y ago
    Masculinity is fine in all it's forms.
    - exe34 1y ago
      Being a dick isn't masculinity though. In fact the Inuits consider it childish. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/685533353/a-playful-way-to-teach-kids-to-control-their-anger https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/6855333... Anger is a feeling, it's internal. Reacting externally with anger is a choice to be a dick. If you can't tell the difference, you have some growing up to do. Linus did.

dolebirchwood 1y ago

There is a tendency among conflict-avoidant people to lionize "keeping cool" as a moral virtue. This strategy of putting passionate (yet justifiable) anger to shame ensures there is minimal rocking of the boat, thereby allowing all aboard to sit peacefully with smiles on their faces as the ship sinks due to their own negligence and dereliction.

komali2 1y ago
Do you believe conflict resolution requires telling someone to "shut the fuck up" in all caps and then insult their abilities as an engineer? Do you believe this is the most effective method of conflict resolution that doesn't involve "rolling over?" Personally I think Dale Carnegie cracked that nut nearly a century ago and had the research of many great figures in history to back it up. If you haven't read "How to Win Friends," spoilers: he never suggests screaming someone out of a room.
- itsthecourier 1y ago
  SHUT THE DUCK UP, KOMALI /s
- dolebirchwood 1y ago
  Do you believe Linus was interested in "winning a friend" in that conversation?
  - komali2 1y ago
    I agree that the book's title is a bit old fashioned. The other half of the title is "...and Influence People," though. Surely Linus is interested in influencing people, effectively? Surely he's interested in being an effective leader? I'll answer for you: yes, he is, and also yes he believes this screaming version of him was wrong to be so cruel and abrasive: https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 If Linus is trying to grow out of the emotional outburst version of himself I don't understand why people continue to try to defend it. The man himself now believes it's the wrong way to be.

komali2 1y ago

This is interesting to me because usually the attitude on this forum is that emotions get in the way of rational behavior and thought. Of course we're all different people but I've noticed that trend. The more Spock, the better, at least in technical fields and debate. Yet that goes away as soon as it becomes time to defend Linus Torvalds. Then it's "actually his emotional outbursts are rational and necessary." I hate to say it but I've always wondered how different the attitude towards Linus would be if everything about him and his history was the same, except, he was a woman. If your gut reaction is to defend him because he's so clearly a once in a generation engineer and very smart, remember, the even more experienced and wise version of him has disavowed this earlier, emotional outburst version of him: https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 Why defend behavior that he himself has agreed is indefensible?

_101 1y ago
I’d defend the hell out of Linus as a woman.
- grosswait 1y ago
  Seconded. Makes no difference
  - komali2 1y ago
    Well great, you two are good people. I recommend searching through the mailing list and forums for when Sarah (now Sage) Sharp was recommending a code of conduct and pushing back on people for being brutes. Many were opining along the lines of Sharp was just a girl that couldn't take the heat, was trying to make the FOSS world all fluffy rainbows etc. Strong evidence that girl Linus wouldn't haven't had the same amount of success and his emotional outbursts would have been seen very differently by the community, despite us three staunch defenders. Linus' whole come to Jesus and apology was kicked off by that and the code of conduct saga, which was predicated on the fact that 98% of kernel developers were men. I think we can agree it'd be naive, despite us three not being misogynists, to believe that the community wouldn't construe girl Linus' outbursts as hysterical?