5 ms·

The real kicker here, is the that it is not the case in China (which FWIW, has a roughly equivalent GDP to the EU). Does China struggle if the US cuts off lots

The real kicker here, is the that it is not the case in China (which FWIW, has a roughly equivalent GDP to the EU). Does China struggle if the US cuts off lots of these things? Sure. But they have a local ecosystem that has been forcibly, and which much complaint from big-tech, separated from the US ecosystem. Are they reliant on Android? Sure, but only the open source bits. Google isn't allowed the same strangle hold over the rest as it is in the west. I'm not necessarily sure that this is to China's credit, but if this is the discussion that Europe wants to have, then it is a good contrast.

mrob 1y ago
Russia is also in a better position, with their own computer architecture used for military applications: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer)
- nine_k 1y ago
  In this regard, RISC-V processors made on a 65nm node somewhere in a Basch foundry should count, too. According to the article you linked, most Elbrus CPUs are made at TSMC, not locally (click any CPU in the list). Apparently the newest Elbrus produced locally in Russia was Elbrus 4S, from 2014, 800 MHz, 65nm, 4 cores.
- yencabulator 1y ago
  Meanwhile reports from Russia's war on Ukraine say there's commercial US GPS devices taped to their fighter jet dashboards, and much of their manufacturing relies on breaking chip sale sanctions by hiding behind intermediaries. https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-su34-jets-basic-gps-receivers-taped-to-dashboards-uk-2022-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-su34-jets-basic-gps-r... https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2022/06/21/exposed-captured-russian-pilots-admit-that-russian-air-force-distributed-garmin-gps-and-pronebo-mobile-app-to-navigate-in-ukraine/ https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2022/06/21/exposed-capture...
nine_k 1y ago
Trust forms dependencies. It's sort of the point of it. Cooperation is dependence. Independence is often achieved with violent struggle, or just a lot of struggle. US and EU used to be good partners. Still are, but maybe not as good now. Achieving independence would be costly, because cooperation increases efficiency, and cutting it incurs costs and discomfort. There should be quite a bit of incentive to e.g. drop AWS or stop using Google. Building local equivalents is not impossible, but again is pretty costly and slow. In other news, all of the world's most advanced semiconductor manufacturing, everywhere, depends on machines produced my one Dutch company, ASML. A ton of actual production depends on one small island nation, Taiwan. There is a number of examples like that. Achieving autarky, North Korea-style, is really really costly, and slows you down quite a bit.
- dijit 1y ago
  Agree with everything you've said, but a major differentiator between TSMC and ASML is that you buy a bit of gear and then you kinda own it. It's like buying a plow; you use the plow to till your land and if a better plow exists (or, tractor) you go buy it.. or if your plow breaks you buy a new one. But, we're in a situation where the plow can be taken away from us, arbitrarily, and the consequence is that people could possibly starve to death. The situations are materially different in this aspect, but yes, trust breeds interdependence, which ironically is the point of the EU: if we all depend on each other then we won't go to war with each other anymore; seems to have worked. Longest peace in history.
  - jand 1y ago
    I get your point, but according to [1] ASML was a bad example. There is no kill switch which might be pressed only under circumstances that may never be "adapted to current situations". So who does said plow belong to? [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-21/asml-tsmc-can-disable-chip-machines-if-china-invades-taiwan https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-21/asml-tsmc...
    - nradov 1y ago
      Regardless of whether there's a kill switch or not, it's really not practical to operate any advanced ASML equipment without ongoing support from the vendor.

mrob 1y ago

Russia is also in a better position, with their own computer architecture used for military applications: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer)

nine_k 1y ago
In this regard, RISC-V processors made on a 65nm node somewhere in a Basch foundry should count, too. According to the article you linked, most Elbrus CPUs are made at TSMC, not locally (click any CPU in the list). Apparently the newest Elbrus produced locally in Russia was Elbrus 4S, from 2014, 800 MHz, 65nm, 4 cores.
yencabulator 1y ago
Meanwhile reports from Russia's war on Ukraine say there's commercial US GPS devices taped to their fighter jet dashboards, and much of their manufacturing relies on breaking chip sale sanctions by hiding behind intermediaries. https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-su34-jets-basic-gps-receivers-taped-to-dashboards-uk-2022-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-su34-jets-basic-gps-r... https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2022/06/21/exposed-captured-russian-pilots-admit-that-russian-air-force-distributed-garmin-gps-and-pronebo-mobile-app-to-navigate-in-ukraine/ https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2022/06/21/exposed-capture...

nine_k 1y ago

Trust forms dependencies. It's sort of the point of it. Cooperation is dependence. Independence is often achieved with violent struggle, or just a lot of struggle. US and EU used to be good partners. Still are, but maybe not as good now. Achieving independence would be costly, because cooperation increases efficiency, and cutting it incurs costs and discomfort. There should be quite a bit of incentive to e.g. drop AWS or stop using Google. Building local equivalents is not impossible, but again is pretty costly and slow. In other news, all of the world's most advanced semiconductor manufacturing, everywhere, depends on machines produced my one Dutch company, ASML. A ton of actual production depends on one small island nation, Taiwan. There is a number of examples like that. Achieving autarky, North Korea-style, is really really costly, and slows you down quite a bit.

dijit 1y ago
Agree with everything you've said, but a major differentiator between TSMC and ASML is that you buy a bit of gear and then you kinda own it. It's like buying a plow; you use the plow to till your land and if a better plow exists (or, tractor) you go buy it.. or if your plow breaks you buy a new one. But, we're in a situation where the plow can be taken away from us, arbitrarily, and the consequence is that people could possibly starve to death. The situations are materially different in this aspect, but yes, trust breeds interdependence, which ironically is the point of the EU: if we all depend on each other then we won't go to war with each other anymore; seems to have worked. Longest peace in history.
- jand 1y ago
  I get your point, but according to [1] ASML was a bad example. There is no kill switch which might be pressed only under circumstances that may never be "adapted to current situations". So who does said plow belong to? [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-21/asml-tsmc-can-disable-chip-machines-if-china-invades-taiwan https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-21/asml-tsmc...
  - nradov 1y ago
    Regardless of whether there's a kill switch or not, it's really not practical to operate any advanced ASML equipment without ongoing support from the vendor.