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One thing that has become abundantly clear from the AI craze is how many people - who do programming for a living - really don't like programming. I don't reall

by bigstrat2003 1y ago

One thing that has become abundantly clear from the AI craze is how many people - who do programming for a living - really don't like programming. I don't really understand why they got into the field; to be honest, it seems kind of like someone who doesn't like playing the guitar embarking on a career as a guitarist. But regardless of the reasons they seem to be pretty happy for a chance to not have to program any more.

a_bonobo 1y ago
Do you like 'solving problems' or do you like 'getting into the weeds'? Both are valid, and both are common uses of programming. When I was younger, I loved 'getting into the weeds'. 'Oh, the audio broke? That gives me a great change to learn more about ALSA!'. Now that I'm older, I don't want to learn more about ALSA, I've seen enough. I'm now more in camp 'solving problems', I want the job done and the task successfully finished to a reasonable level of quality, I don't care which library or data structure was particularly used to get the job done. (both camps obviously overlap, many issues require getting into the weeds) In this framework, the promise of AI is great for camp 'solving problems' (yes yes hallucinations etc.), but horrible for camp 'getting into the weeds'. From your framing you sound like you're from camp 'getting into the weeds', and that's fine too. But I can't say camp 'solving problems' doesn't like programming. Lot of carpenters out there who like to build things without caring what their hammer does.
- paulmooreparks 1y ago
  Exactly this. I still "get into the weeds" without AI if I really need to dig into learning something new or if I want to explore some totally new idea (LLMs don't really do "totally new"). If I'm debugging a CRUD app, though... eh, it's sunny outside and I only have a couple more hours of daylight, so, AI it is.
- astrange 1y ago
  I spent a very long time getting into the weeds to learn everything about computer architecture, because at the time it seemed like it was the only way to do it and I wanted to have a career. In the meantime social media / cloud hosting / StackOverflow were invented, it became much easier for people to write online, and it turned out I didn't need to do any of that because the actual authors have all explained themselves on it. Though, doing this is still the right way to learn how to debug things! nb I actually just realized I never understood a specific bit of image processing math after working on ffmpeg for years, asked a random AI, and got a perfectly clear explanation of it.
- skydhash 1y ago
  I like solving problem. But I also want the problem to stay solved. And if I happen to see a common pattern between problems, then I build a solution generator. Maybe because I don’t think in terms of code. I just have this mental image that is abstract, but is consistent. Code is just a tool to materialize it, just like words are a tool to tell a story. By the time I’m typing anything, I’m already fully aware of my goals. Designing and writing are two different activities. Reading LLMs code is jarring because it changes the pattern midway. Like an author smashing the modern world and middle earth together. It’s like writing an urban fantasy and someone keeps interrupting you with some hard science-fiction ideas.
- Dilettante_ 1y ago
  >I'm now more in camp 'solving problems', I want the job done and the task successfully finished to a reasonable level of quality To split the definitions one step further: That actually sounds not like you 'enjoy solving problems'(the process), but rather you 'enjoy not having the problem anymore'(the result). Meaning you don't like programming for itself(anymore?), but merely see it as a useful tool. Implying that your life would be no less rich if you had a magical button that completely bypassed the activity. I don't think someone who would stop doing it if given the chance can be said to "like programming", and certainly not in the way GP means.
  - yunwal 1y ago
    AI is not "a magical button" though. It's another tool to solve the problem, that allows you to get a bit less into the weeds (sometimes, until it messes up), essentially by giving you a bunch of reasonable default behavior.
simonw 1y ago
One thing that has become abundantly clear from the AI craze is how many people who do programming for a living are actively hostile to fascinating new applications of computer science that open up entirely new capabilities and ways of working.
- probably_wrong 1y ago
  I think you're painting with too wide a brush. Someone may say, like in this post, "AI makes my work easier", and that may be a valid point. Someone else may say "AI has made my work much harder" [1], and that's a valid point too. It may very well be that we'll find a place in the middle, but in the meantime it seem disingenuous to me to accept one side without acknowledging that the other is making valid points too. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44558665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44558665
- patates 1y ago
  They are apparently also hostile to the people who just want to get things done. I may not love woodworking but I may still want to build my own damn boat. I personally love programming but I don't disrespect people who are in it because they need to be or even just feel like they need to be.
sneak 1y ago
I love programming, but 90% of it is crappy toil due to language or tool design. I especially hate about 90% of the stuff one has to do to work around bad design decisions when writing significant amounts of python or javascript. Disliking toil is not the same as disliking programming.
closewith 1y ago
Most software developers work in software because it's well paid and much easier to break into than other similarly paid jobs. Most software developers never write software outside of education or employment. That's completely normal. Even most recreational programming is to solve a problem. Very few developers write software for the pleasure of it and would happily use a magical "solve my problem" button instead. This is also true for all employers and customers. Honestly, it sounds to me that you fundamentally misunderstand the industry in which you work.
- gonzalohm 1y ago
  Why would you work in a field that you have no interest in? Seems like a good way to get depressed
  - closewith 1y ago
    Most people work to support themselves and their families. Software's no different. Pay and conditions in software are so much higher than any vocation that it attracts many people who would never program recreationally. If that's not you and you are overjoyed to be able to write software everyday, that's fine. But you should recognise that you're in a tiny minority of developers.
latexr 1y ago
> I don't really understand why they got into the field; to be honest Money. Startup hype. Thinking they’ll be the next Zuckerberg (as if that’d be a good thing).
viraptor 1y ago
> it seems kind of like someone who doesn't like playing the guitar embarking on a career as a guitarist Do you like playing guitar or do you like putting pressure on the correct length of the string at the specific distance from the fret? Do you like programming, or do you like manually typing out all the trivial details of each separate line? I've not found any pleasure in typing out the details of DTOs and their conversation functions repetitively by hand, for example.

a_bonobo 1y ago

Do you like 'solving problems' or do you like 'getting into the weeds'? Both are valid, and both are common uses of programming. When I was younger, I loved 'getting into the weeds'. 'Oh, the audio broke? That gives me a great change to learn more about ALSA!'. Now that I'm older, I don't want to learn more about ALSA, I've seen enough. I'm now more in camp 'solving problems', I want the job done and the task successfully finished to a reasonable level of quality, I don't care which library or data structure was particularly used to get the job done. (both camps obviously overlap, many issues require getting into the weeds) In this framework, the promise of AI is great for camp 'solving problems' (yes yes hallucinations etc.), but horrible for camp 'getting into the weeds'. From your framing you sound like you're from camp 'getting into the weeds', and that's fine too. But I can't say camp 'solving problems' doesn't like programming. Lot of carpenters out there who like to build things without caring what their hammer does.

paulmooreparks 1y ago
Exactly this. I still "get into the weeds" without AI if I really need to dig into learning something new or if I want to explore some totally new idea (LLMs don't really do "totally new"). If I'm debugging a CRUD app, though... eh, it's sunny outside and I only have a couple more hours of daylight, so, AI it is.
astrange 1y ago
I spent a very long time getting into the weeds to learn everything about computer architecture, because at the time it seemed like it was the only way to do it and I wanted to have a career. In the meantime social media / cloud hosting / StackOverflow were invented, it became much easier for people to write online, and it turned out I didn't need to do any of that because the actual authors have all explained themselves on it. Though, doing this is still the right way to learn how to debug things! nb I actually just realized I never understood a specific bit of image processing math after working on ffmpeg for years, asked a random AI, and got a perfectly clear explanation of it.
skydhash 1y ago
I like solving problem. But I also want the problem to stay solved. And if I happen to see a common pattern between problems, then I build a solution generator. Maybe because I don’t think in terms of code. I just have this mental image that is abstract, but is consistent. Code is just a tool to materialize it, just like words are a tool to tell a story. By the time I’m typing anything, I’m already fully aware of my goals. Designing and writing are two different activities. Reading LLMs code is jarring because it changes the pattern midway. Like an author smashing the modern world and middle earth together. It’s like writing an urban fantasy and someone keeps interrupting you with some hard science-fiction ideas.
Dilettante_ 1y ago
>I'm now more in camp 'solving problems', I want the job done and the task successfully finished to a reasonable level of quality To split the definitions one step further: That actually sounds not like you 'enjoy solving problems'(the process), but rather you 'enjoy not having the problem anymore'(the result). Meaning you don't like programming for itself(anymore?), but merely see it as a useful tool. Implying that your life would be no less rich if you had a magical button that completely bypassed the activity. I don't think someone who would stop doing it if given the chance can be said to "like programming", and certainly not in the way GP means.
- yunwal 1y ago
  AI is not "a magical button" though. It's another tool to solve the problem, that allows you to get a bit less into the weeds (sometimes, until it messes up), essentially by giving you a bunch of reasonable default behavior.

simonw 1y ago

One thing that has become abundantly clear from the AI craze is how many people who do programming for a living are actively hostile to fascinating new applications of computer science that open up entirely new capabilities and ways of working.

probably_wrong 1y ago
I think you're painting with too wide a brush. Someone may say, like in this post, "AI makes my work easier", and that may be a valid point. Someone else may say "AI has made my work much harder" [1], and that's a valid point too. It may very well be that we'll find a place in the middle, but in the meantime it seem disingenuous to me to accept one side without acknowledging that the other is making valid points too. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44558665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44558665
patates 1y ago
They are apparently also hostile to the people who just want to get things done. I may not love woodworking but I may still want to build my own damn boat. I personally love programming but I don't disrespect people who are in it because they need to be or even just feel like they need to be.

sneak 1y ago

I love programming, but 90% of it is crappy toil due to language or tool design. I especially hate about 90% of the stuff one has to do to work around bad design decisions when writing significant amounts of python or javascript. Disliking toil is not the same as disliking programming.

closewith 1y ago

Most software developers work in software because it's well paid and much easier to break into than other similarly paid jobs. Most software developers never write software outside of education or employment. That's completely normal. Even most recreational programming is to solve a problem. Very few developers write software for the pleasure of it and would happily use a magical "solve my problem" button instead. This is also true for all employers and customers. Honestly, it sounds to me that you fundamentally misunderstand the industry in which you work.

gonzalohm 1y ago
Why would you work in a field that you have no interest in? Seems like a good way to get depressed
- closewith 1y ago
  Most people work to support themselves and their families. Software's no different. Pay and conditions in software are so much higher than any vocation that it attracts many people who would never program recreationally. If that's not you and you are overjoyed to be able to write software everyday, that's fine. But you should recognise that you're in a tiny minority of developers.

latexr 1y ago

> I don't really understand why they got into the field; to be honest Money. Startup hype. Thinking they’ll be the next Zuckerberg (as if that’d be a good thing).

viraptor 1y ago

> it seems kind of like someone who doesn't like playing the guitar embarking on a career as a guitarist Do you like playing guitar or do you like putting pressure on the correct length of the string at the specific distance from the fret? Do you like programming, or do you like manually typing out all the trivial details of each separate line? I've not found any pleasure in typing out the details of DTOs and their conversation functions repetitively by hand, for example.