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Do you personally sanction all countries that commit atrocities or is it specific to Russia? I don't care what you do or don't support with your money, but I'm

Do you personally sanction all countries that commit atrocities or is it specific to Russia? I don't care what you do or don't support with your money, but I'm genuinely curious about the mindset.

radlad 1y ago
Your question doesn't seem to be made in good faith - you seem to be implying that there is no way OP sanctions "all countries that commit atrocities," because of course they don't - that would be impractical. And furthermore, "committing atrocities" leaves a lot of wiggle room. For most people there is a tradeoff that happens between being informed, the value provided by a service, and the ethical or moral cost. For something like internet search, which is a commodity, it's quite easy to eschew one service for another.
margalabargala 1y ago
It is not possible for any one person to maintain 100% awareness of the entire planet, nor is it feasible for most people to simply live in the woods as a hunter-gatherer and take nothing from others who might do wrong elsewhere. Once we accept that each of us is a human rather than a morally perfect literal supernatural angel, each of us must decide: If we cannot sanction all wrongdoers, does that mean we sanction no wrongdoers, or some? If some, how do we decide which ones? One good metric would be "minimum impact on my own life". Another would be "amount of badness I'm personally aware of that entity doing". A third would be "how closely is the entity that I'm actually affecting ties to the group committing the atrocities?" So; I personally sanction some countries that commit atrocities, one of which is Russia.
- lawn 1y ago
  Or as the saying goes: Perfection is the enemy of good.
- lukan 1y ago
  But you don't sanction the country directly, but any company that may or may not support the war in Ukraine. To me that seems incredibly unfair to normal russian people(who still exists) while still buying oil from saudi arabia for example. Ask Kashoggi about it. Or any of those other poor bastards that got rid of without anyone caring about them. In general, collective punishment is maybe not the way to improve the world I think. But targeted action or boycott.
  - margalabargala 1y ago
    Well, here we're discussing Yandex, there's no "may or may not" about that one: https://www.zois-berlin.de/en/publications/zois-spotlight/the-sad-fate-of-yandex-from-independent-tech-startup-to-kremlin-propaganda-tool https://www.zois-berlin.de/en/publications/zois-spotlight/th... > To me that seems incredibly unfair to normal russian people Life's not fair. Among the unfairness experienced by a median Russian citizen, a random American's disinterest in supporting Yandex is probably low on their list. > In general, collective punishment is maybe not the way to improve the world I think. But targeted action or boycott. Sure. And again, here we are discussing the targeted action of boycotting Yandex and other corporations that are economic arms of the Russian government.
    - lukan 1y ago
      Ok, I did not know those specific details, thanks for providing. I was more talking general. Different story here it seems, but boycotting kagi because of it still sounds extreme to me.
- andoando 1y ago
  So go head and sanction the US because as far as I am aware its still the largest imperial power in the world
  - margalabargala 1y ago
    Since I live there, that fails the metric of: > "minimum impact on my own life" Which I justified: > Once we accept that each of us is a human rather than a morally perfect literal supernatural angel, each of us must decide: If we cannot sanction all wrongdoers, does that mean we sanction no wrongdoers, or some? But you should absolutely feel free to do so if you are so inclined!
    - andoando 1y ago
      You don't have to sanction everything, just as much as you can.
- unclad5968 1y ago
  I've never thought about it like that. To me, this is the most interesting part: > If some, how do we decide which ones? One good metric would be "minimum impact on my own life". Another would be "amount of badness I'm personally aware of that entity doing". A third would be "how closely is the entity that I'm actually affecting ties to the group committing the atrocities?" I wonder how different people decide on different metrics. For me, I probably don't even realize I'm deciding, making it mostly emotionally based I guess. Thanks for sharing with me!
- bicepjai 1y ago
  This is a well thought out response that I can connect to. I support the 3 metrics you laid out.
jwr 1y ago
Let's assume the question has been asked in good faith. Yes, I actually do. And I lose money because of that, significant amounts, because I run a SaaS, where I (as an example) stopped service to all customers from Russia when the full invasion of Ukraine started. So it's not just about not paying, it's about refusing money as well. It's easy to fall into the "whataboutism" trap and do nothing, because one can always say "but what about… [insert country here]". I decided to draw the line somewhere. With Russia it's actually easy: an unprovoked invasion of another country, targeting civilians, raping and murdering, there have been few wars where things were so black and white in the history of mankind. With other countries it's more difficult, but I still draw a line, and state-sanctioned genocide falls beyond that line. Some people say one should not "punish" entire countries or populations for the actions of their leaders. I disagree. Leaders are leaders because they have been elected, and/or have support within the population. And in 21st century there should be consequences for choosing, supporting, or allowing the growth of power of a leader that is a war-raging lunatic. I do not accept simply doing nothing.
- lukan 1y ago
  "I do not accept simply doing nothing." You can also donate to the Ukrainian army directly. Or to amnesty international. Or a tons of other options instead of collective punishment. What is the ordinary russian against the war supposed to do? They don't even have a real option of leaving the country as most other states don't want them because they are russian. In my opinion this helps Putin in his propaganda that the west just hates russia.
  - throw123xz 1y ago
    Just because you decide to do something, it doesn't mean that you have to do everything. Even if you wanted to, it's likely that you can't. > In my opinion this helps Putin in his propaganda that the west just hates russia. It does help him, but you're not going to support those who do nothing or feed the machine waging war just so Putin's propaganda gets a bit weaker. If the average Russian doesn't understand that the reaction is due to their (well, mostly their governments) actions, then that's another problem that only them can fix.
rand17 1y ago
I live in the Eastern Bloc. I fear Russia. We still see the bulletholes in the old houses in the inner city that were done by the "liberators".

Do you personally sanction all countries that commit atrocities or is it specific to Russia? I don't care what you do or don't support with your money, but I'm genuinely curious about the mindset.

radlad 1y ago

Your question doesn't seem to be made in good faith - you seem to be implying that there is no way OP sanctions "all countries that commit atrocities," because of course they don't - that would be impractical. And furthermore, "committing atrocities" leaves a lot of wiggle room. For most people there is a tradeoff that happens between being informed, the value provided by a service, and the ethical or moral cost. For something like internet search, which is a commodity, it's quite easy to eschew one service for another.

margalabargala 1y ago

It is not possible for any one person to maintain 100% awareness of the entire planet, nor is it feasible for most people to simply live in the woods as a hunter-gatherer and take nothing from others who might do wrong elsewhere. Once we accept that each of us is a human rather than a morally perfect literal supernatural angel, each of us must decide: If we cannot sanction all wrongdoers, does that mean we sanction no wrongdoers, or some? If some, how do we decide which ones? One good metric would be "minimum impact on my own life". Another would be "amount of badness I'm personally aware of that entity doing". A third would be "how closely is the entity that I'm actually affecting ties to the group committing the atrocities?" So; I personally sanction some countries that commit atrocities, one of which is Russia.

lawn 1y ago
Or as the saying goes: Perfection is the enemy of good.
lukan 1y ago
But you don't sanction the country directly, but any company that may or may not support the war in Ukraine. To me that seems incredibly unfair to normal russian people(who still exists) while still buying oil from saudi arabia for example. Ask Kashoggi about it. Or any of those other poor bastards that got rid of without anyone caring about them. In general, collective punishment is maybe not the way to improve the world I think. But targeted action or boycott.
- margalabargala 1y ago
  Well, here we're discussing Yandex, there's no "may or may not" about that one: https://www.zois-berlin.de/en/publications/zois-spotlight/the-sad-fate-of-yandex-from-independent-tech-startup-to-kremlin-propaganda-tool https://www.zois-berlin.de/en/publications/zois-spotlight/th... > To me that seems incredibly unfair to normal russian people Life's not fair. Among the unfairness experienced by a median Russian citizen, a random American's disinterest in supporting Yandex is probably low on their list. > In general, collective punishment is maybe not the way to improve the world I think. But targeted action or boycott. Sure. And again, here we are discussing the targeted action of boycotting Yandex and other corporations that are economic arms of the Russian government.
  - lukan 1y ago
    Ok, I did not know those specific details, thanks for providing. I was more talking general. Different story here it seems, but boycotting kagi because of it still sounds extreme to me.
andoando 1y ago
So go head and sanction the US because as far as I am aware its still the largest imperial power in the world
- margalabargala 1y ago
  Since I live there, that fails the metric of: > "minimum impact on my own life" Which I justified: > Once we accept that each of us is a human rather than a morally perfect literal supernatural angel, each of us must decide: If we cannot sanction all wrongdoers, does that mean we sanction no wrongdoers, or some? But you should absolutely feel free to do so if you are so inclined!
  - andoando 1y ago
    You don't have to sanction everything, just as much as you can.
unclad5968 1y ago
I've never thought about it like that. To me, this is the most interesting part: > If some, how do we decide which ones? One good metric would be "minimum impact on my own life". Another would be "amount of badness I'm personally aware of that entity doing". A third would be "how closely is the entity that I'm actually affecting ties to the group committing the atrocities?" I wonder how different people decide on different metrics. For me, I probably don't even realize I'm deciding, making it mostly emotionally based I guess. Thanks for sharing with me!
bicepjai 1y ago
This is a well thought out response that I can connect to. I support the 3 metrics you laid out.

jwr 1y ago

Let's assume the question has been asked in good faith. Yes, I actually do. And I lose money because of that, significant amounts, because I run a SaaS, where I (as an example) stopped service to all customers from Russia when the full invasion of Ukraine started. So it's not just about not paying, it's about refusing money as well. It's easy to fall into the "whataboutism" trap and do nothing, because one can always say "but what about… [insert country here]". I decided to draw the line somewhere. With Russia it's actually easy: an unprovoked invasion of another country, targeting civilians, raping and murdering, there have been few wars where things were so black and white in the history of mankind. With other countries it's more difficult, but I still draw a line, and state-sanctioned genocide falls beyond that line. Some people say one should not "punish" entire countries or populations for the actions of their leaders. I disagree. Leaders are leaders because they have been elected, and/or have support within the population. And in 21st century there should be consequences for choosing, supporting, or allowing the growth of power of a leader that is a war-raging lunatic. I do not accept simply doing nothing.

lukan 1y ago
"I do not accept simply doing nothing." You can also donate to the Ukrainian army directly. Or to amnesty international. Or a tons of other options instead of collective punishment. What is the ordinary russian against the war supposed to do? They don't even have a real option of leaving the country as most other states don't want them because they are russian. In my opinion this helps Putin in his propaganda that the west just hates russia.
- throw123xz 1y ago
  Just because you decide to do something, it doesn't mean that you have to do everything. Even if you wanted to, it's likely that you can't. > In my opinion this helps Putin in his propaganda that the west just hates russia. It does help him, but you're not going to support those who do nothing or feed the machine waging war just so Putin's propaganda gets a bit weaker. If the average Russian doesn't understand that the reaction is due to their (well, mostly their governments) actions, then that's another problem that only them can fix.

rand17 1y ago

I live in the Eastern Bloc. I fear Russia. We still see the bulletholes in the old houses in the inner city that were done by the "liberators".