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It feels like these older companies had more of "let's open a campus in flyover country" or at least medium sized cities The newer "web 2.0" companies (and I m

It feels like these older companies had more of "let's open a campus in flyover country" or at least medium sized cities The newer "web 2.0" companies (and I mean, even Google and Amazon) opened shop in more affluent places

chartered_stack 1y ago
I'd argue it's not a choice of "let's open a campus in flyover country," but a reflection of how the industry has changed. The "older" companies were manufacturers. Even places like Mountain View and San Jose were the working-class towns with HP factories and semiconductor plants. The concentration of engineering talent (HP/Intel/Apple/Atari) is what created the affluence, especially after manufacturing itself was outsourced globally. The newer Web 2.0 companies don't make physical things; they make software. Their most critical infrastructure isn't a factory but a dense network of developers. They go to the Bay Area, Seattle, etc., because that's where the network is. For the parts of their business that don't require that network, like customer service, they locate in less expensive regions, just as PayPal did with Nebraska. They were even the second largest employer in Nebraska iirc.
- sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
  Amazon's customer service HQ is in West Virginia IIRC.
Arainach 1y ago
There's a significant overlap between well educated technical minds who you want to do information work and people who want to live in a vibrant city. This isn't new and it shouldn't be shocking.
- aydyn 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - barrkel 1y ago
    Metropolises are not soulless, as a rule. They are dynamic and exciting, with an influx of ambitious young people every year trying their best to start something. You don't need a big home space when any cafe can become your living room, any restaurant your kitchen, dining room and wait staff, and any park your professionally tended garden. Your choice of entertainment, especially live entertainment, is mainly limited by your willingness to keep up with what's going on, and not by the sparse calendar of touring acts. Metropolises are fantastic places to live, especially when you are comfortable spending money to expand your space on demand.
    - aydyn 1y ago
      Lets say pay was the same and magically commute was the same too. You would choose a literal pod over half an acre only 75 miles away? Insane. Enjoy your pod. And all the crime too.
      - raverbashing 1y ago
        Not everybody is autistic, you know I gladly pay a lot of money to be in the center of things
        aydyn 1y ago
        You know you can drive there too right? On the other hand, you dont get to live in an actual house. Its sort of like an insect hive.
        baq 1y ago
        You can. It usually means you don’t unless you don’t have to. Living in the city is optimizing for time, not space.
        pclmulqdq 1y ago
        Optimizing for entertainment. You can optimize for time by just not going to the city, too.
- mike_hearn 1y ago
  But Silicon Valley isn't made up of vibrant cities. Most of it is small towns and suburbs between SF and SJ. I remember the first time I was sent to the Bay Area for training. I was excited to see this City of Mountain View I'd heard so much about; to explore its city nightlife and enjoy the view of the mountain. My boss had to let me down gently :) "Mountain View in Europe would be called a village", he said.
  - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
    Yup. The Bay Area just seems like endless suburbia with a small city hidden inside. Nice weather though, to be fair.
    - SJC_Hacker 1y ago
      Along the 101/El Camino more like a series of small towns that blend into each other. Palo Alto, Menlo Park, Mountain View at least have walkable streets with restaraubts, shops, etc, clustered around a “Main Street”, and residential areas laid out on a grid that mostly blend in to this area not sealed off in some way. Yes it is mostly single family homes and smaller apartments, with almost no high rises. But when I think of “suburbia” I think of a series of housing developments, strip malls p, golf courses just off all major highways/roads. Cul de sacs as opposed to grid pattern. Generally hostile to pedestrians getting fro residential to commercial and business areas. On,y part of the Valley is like this, mostly the richer areas more towards 280, such as Los Altos, Portola Valley, Cupertino.
      - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
        > But when I think of “suburbia” I think of a series of housing developments, strip malls p, golf courses just off all major highways/roads. Cul de sacs as opposed to grid pattern. Generally hostile to pedestrians getting fro residential to commercial and business areas. On,y part of the Valley is like this, mostly the richer areas more towards 280, such as Los Altos, Portola Valley, Cupertino. I guess this is reflective of US/Europe suburbia. From my (Irish) perspective, the valley is clearly suburbia given the density. I'll never forget taking the caltrain from Palo Alto to SF and seeing basically low-density housing with sporadic strips of shops. That would be clearly suburban to me (but obviously other people's opinions will differ).
HPsquared 1y ago
They are working on a different planning time horizon. The older established companies would have a 10-20 year plan which is enough time for diffusion and growth of talent. Startups (unless really well-financed) think more in terms of the next 1-2 years, not enough time for the local community to grow around the company.
asoneth 1y ago
If only one company offers jobs in your profession or skill set, that company has a labor monopsony. Back when companies provided lifetime job security and pensions, moving to a remote corporate campus might have been a reasonable tradeoff to consider -- your reduced negotiating leverage would depress your wages but that might have been offset by the lower cost of living (e.g. housing). But modern skilled workers know how risky it is to put down roots in a place where they only have a couple employment options. So companies struggle to attract talent to remote areas and end up needing to hire in places that already have an established pool of skilled labor, which is typically in the cities and more affluent areas of the state or country. In this case, the lack of employment options means many of the engineers laid off by Intel will end up needing to uproot their families' lives and move to a new city or state to find a new employer who can to pay for their skills.
Yeul 1y ago
This is what I never understood about Americans. In my country people want to live in civilization- you can't just move your company to redneck land out in the boonies! These are highly educated liberals for crying out they want a hipster Uyghur restaurant not a McDrive.
- jollyllama 1y ago
  For some of us, there's more to life than what we consume.
- SJC_Hacker 1y ago
  In their 20s sure. When they start having kids, things like affordable housing come into play.

chartered_stack 1y ago

I'd argue it's not a choice of "let's open a campus in flyover country," but a reflection of how the industry has changed. The "older" companies were manufacturers. Even places like Mountain View and San Jose were the working-class towns with HP factories and semiconductor plants. The concentration of engineering talent (HP/Intel/Apple/Atari) is what created the affluence, especially after manufacturing itself was outsourced globally. The newer Web 2.0 companies don't make physical things; they make software. Their most critical infrastructure isn't a factory but a dense network of developers. They go to the Bay Area, Seattle, etc., because that's where the network is. For the parts of their business that don't require that network, like customer service, they locate in less expensive regions, just as PayPal did with Nebraska. They were even the second largest employer in Nebraska iirc.

sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
Amazon's customer service HQ is in West Virginia IIRC.

Arainach 1y ago

There's a significant overlap between well educated technical minds who you want to do information work and people who want to live in a vibrant city. This isn't new and it shouldn't be shocking.

aydyn 1y ago
[flagged]
- barrkel 1y ago
  Metropolises are not soulless, as a rule. They are dynamic and exciting, with an influx of ambitious young people every year trying their best to start something. You don't need a big home space when any cafe can become your living room, any restaurant your kitchen, dining room and wait staff, and any park your professionally tended garden. Your choice of entertainment, especially live entertainment, is mainly limited by your willingness to keep up with what's going on, and not by the sparse calendar of touring acts. Metropolises are fantastic places to live, especially when you are comfortable spending money to expand your space on demand.
  - aydyn 1y ago
    Lets say pay was the same and magically commute was the same too. You would choose a literal pod over half an acre only 75 miles away? Insane. Enjoy your pod. And all the crime too.
    - raverbashing 1y ago
      Not everybody is autistic, you know I gladly pay a lot of money to be in the center of things
      - aydyn 1y ago
        You know you can drive there too right? On the other hand, you dont get to live in an actual house. Its sort of like an insect hive.
        baq 1y ago
        You can. It usually means you don’t unless you don’t have to. Living in the city is optimizing for time, not space.
        pclmulqdq 1y ago
        Optimizing for entertainment. You can optimize for time by just not going to the city, too.
mike_hearn 1y ago
But Silicon Valley isn't made up of vibrant cities. Most of it is small towns and suburbs between SF and SJ. I remember the first time I was sent to the Bay Area for training. I was excited to see this City of Mountain View I'd heard so much about; to explore its city nightlife and enjoy the view of the mountain. My boss had to let me down gently :) "Mountain View in Europe would be called a village", he said.
- disgruntledphd2 1y ago
  Yup. The Bay Area just seems like endless suburbia with a small city hidden inside. Nice weather though, to be fair.
  - SJC_Hacker 1y ago
    Along the 101/El Camino more like a series of small towns that blend into each other. Palo Alto, Menlo Park, Mountain View at least have walkable streets with restaraubts, shops, etc, clustered around a “Main Street”, and residential areas laid out on a grid that mostly blend in to this area not sealed off in some way. Yes it is mostly single family homes and smaller apartments, with almost no high rises. But when I think of “suburbia” I think of a series of housing developments, strip malls p, golf courses just off all major highways/roads. Cul de sacs as opposed to grid pattern. Generally hostile to pedestrians getting fro residential to commercial and business areas. On,y part of the Valley is like this, mostly the richer areas more towards 280, such as Los Altos, Portola Valley, Cupertino.
    - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
      > But when I think of “suburbia” I think of a series of housing developments, strip malls p, golf courses just off all major highways/roads. Cul de sacs as opposed to grid pattern. Generally hostile to pedestrians getting fro residential to commercial and business areas. On,y part of the Valley is like this, mostly the richer areas more towards 280, such as Los Altos, Portola Valley, Cupertino. I guess this is reflective of US/Europe suburbia. From my (Irish) perspective, the valley is clearly suburbia given the density. I'll never forget taking the caltrain from Palo Alto to SF and seeing basically low-density housing with sporadic strips of shops. That would be clearly suburban to me (but obviously other people's opinions will differ).

HPsquared 1y ago

They are working on a different planning time horizon. The older established companies would have a 10-20 year plan which is enough time for diffusion and growth of talent. Startups (unless really well-financed) think more in terms of the next 1-2 years, not enough time for the local community to grow around the company.

asoneth 1y ago

If only one company offers jobs in your profession or skill set, that company has a labor monopsony. Back when companies provided lifetime job security and pensions, moving to a remote corporate campus might have been a reasonable tradeoff to consider -- your reduced negotiating leverage would depress your wages but that might have been offset by the lower cost of living (e.g. housing). But modern skilled workers know how risky it is to put down roots in a place where they only have a couple employment options. So companies struggle to attract talent to remote areas and end up needing to hire in places that already have an established pool of skilled labor, which is typically in the cities and more affluent areas of the state or country. In this case, the lack of employment options means many of the engineers laid off by Intel will end up needing to uproot their families' lives and move to a new city or state to find a new employer who can to pay for their skills.

Yeul 1y ago

This is what I never understood about Americans. In my country people want to live in civilization- you can't just move your company to redneck land out in the boonies! These are highly educated liberals for crying out they want a hipster Uyghur restaurant not a McDrive.

jollyllama 1y ago
For some of us, there's more to life than what we consume.
SJC_Hacker 1y ago
In their 20s sure. When they start having kids, things like affordable housing come into play.