6 ms·

Based on the history of the tech industry, Linux adoption should be kept at this level and advanced no further. This is already the sweet spot for the "year of

by ryandv 1y ago

Based on the history of the tech industry, Linux adoption should be kept at this level and advanced no further. This is already the sweet spot for the "year of the Linux desktop," which should be celebrated by experts, technical users, and the sufficiently motivated. Once the unwashed masses start coming in, the software and its interaction patterns pander to the lowest common denominator and the quality of the medium degrades.

bboygravity 1y ago
So is this the reasoning to keep Linux as hard to use as possible? * just open the terminal and type this magic spell to make x work *
- DaSHacka 1y ago
  I'd imagine they would say: "if you find that difficult, then yes"
- redeeman 1y ago
  kinda like when people write to eachother, just open up your whatsapp, and type in a magic spell to let your friends know they are invited to dinner tonight..
  - brabel 1y ago
    With the difference that if you get a single character wrong you will get an error that might as well be written in Greek.
    - Lord-Jobo 1y ago
      Or if you get a single character writing you brick the system (happened to me, in bazzite no less!)
fsflover 1y ago
You're probably talking about enshittification [0], which typically affects centralized for-profit entities, not community-based free software projects. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41277484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41277484
- willhslade 1y ago
  Mozilla says hello.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    Firefox is for-profit and centralized.
megous 1y ago
Linux based distributions solve this by not being a monoculture, no? Pandering to the masses would be in the form of specific desktop environment, and maybe specific distribution integrating it well with all kinds of desktop software. Nothing would change for the existing users of obscure software, hackishly stitched together.
- bitmasher9 1y ago
  Not at all. All Linux distributions essentially run the same software with different packages and configuration files. There are a few either/or choices they make, but it’s mostly overlap with very little disro specific software. If Linux software starts widely adapting more dark patterns it will probably impact users across all distributions.
  - palata 1y ago
    I share that concern, but again: if more people move to Linux, maybe (?) more people will become advanced Linux user and maybe (?) it will bring more activity into advanced distros. Not that I believe it will necessarily be good, but I'm not sure it will necessarily be bad. Could go both ways, IMO.
  - ekunazanu 1y ago
    > If Linux software starts widely adapting more dark patterns it will probably impact users across all distributions What is preventing people from just creating a fork?
- monruhaqq 1y ago
  Hey, you have a github or maybe just briefly expand on something for me, I'm interested in the luckfox pico bootloader you wrote and separately using it as USB via raw gadget which are things you've talked about last year, these are things I'm actually wanting to do with my otherwise untouched LF. (was planning on writing a poc for 2024-53197 (iirc that's the cve) I may be looking in the wrong place but your comment was one of the few things I came across referencing LF + usb gadget.
tiborsaas 1y ago
"oh no, the peasants are using MY operating system, this can't be good"
- fsflover 1y ago
  Just switch to Qubes OS, and you're special again. (Worked for me.)
- palata 1y ago
  I think it's more "they will give less control in order to please the peasants, and as a result I will lose control". And I agree with that concern, though my hope is that we can make it easier for the peasants without sacrificing control for the nerds (trying to find a word that would work with "peasant" in this context :D).
  - Zambyte 1y ago
    I disagree with the concern, because obviously making Free Software easier for non-technically inclined people to use does not make the software harder for technically inclined people to use. This is strictly an issue for proprietary software.
    - HKH2 1y ago
      If they take out options, then you might have to maintain a fork or write a plugin to keep them.
      - Zambyte 1y ago
        And thus, nothing was lost except the superiority complex :)
        samrus 1y ago
        And the time and effort it takes to maintian a project.
bitmasher9 1y ago
In some ways we are already seeing this. Have you ever opened a GitHub repository and the only installation/build instructions are for the AUR. I seem to run into this pretty frequently while looking at small projects.
- palata 1y ago
  What bothers me is when projects have a hard dependency on something like systemd or even Ubuntu, because most of the time it is not necessary and it means I can't use it. But other than that, as long as I can compile the project from source (and if it's done properly I don't need instructions for that), I'm fine. I would assume that a repo providing instructions for the AUR is already better than one assuming that "Linux == Ubuntu", because the developer knows at least one distro that is not Ubuntu :-).
palata 1y ago
I understand your point, and I genuinely hate when people try to put pressure on distros to essentially look more like Windows. On the other hand, I think it's great when companies or government try to move to Linux (if you're not a US company or the US government, it makes total sense to try not to depend on US software so much). But I want to believe that there is space for everybody. I wouldn't use Mint myself, but I convinced a couple friends to use it and it works really well! EU governments moving to european distros like Suse and the likes is great. And I will stay closer to "more advanced" distros like Gentoo or Alpine. The beauty of Linux is that there is not one Linux; it's about freedom of choice. Because many people move from Windows to Mint doesn't have to mean that it's hurting Gentoo, I think? Hopefully.
- bigbuppo 1y ago
  I wish Windows 11 looked more like Windows.
chii 1y ago
> the quality of the medium degrades. not necessarily. There's room to have the mass market make breakthroughs in laymen software for linux if there's sufficient demand. And having the mass market lowest common denominator doesnt remove the good stuff - they still exist and you could still choose to use them. This is esp. true for linux, where as you'd have fewer choice/customizability for windows as it's close sourced.
lvass 1y ago
How exactly is Linux becoming popular going to make my EXWM setup suck? To be fair, if it does get a large market share, some company is probably going to take MS's role and make a distro that sucks but many people use. But that shouldn't be an issue to existing users unless they take over something like a major DE and you insist on using that for some reason. For IT people, having the possibility of running a decent shell and sshd in most desktops would be terrific.
- palata 1y ago
  > some company is probably going to take MS's role and make a distro that sucks but many people use You mean other than Ubuntu and the likes?

by ryandv 1y ago

bboygravity 1y ago

So is this the reasoning to keep Linux as hard to use as possible? * just open the terminal and type this magic spell to make x work *

DaSHacka 1y ago
I'd imagine they would say: "if you find that difficult, then yes"
redeeman 1y ago
kinda like when people write to eachother, just open up your whatsapp, and type in a magic spell to let your friends know they are invited to dinner tonight..
- brabel 1y ago
  With the difference that if you get a single character wrong you will get an error that might as well be written in Greek.
  - Lord-Jobo 1y ago
    Or if you get a single character writing you brick the system (happened to me, in bazzite no less!)

fsflover 1y ago

You're probably talking about enshittification [0], which typically affects centralized for-profit entities, not community-based free software projects. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41277484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41277484

willhslade 1y ago
Mozilla says hello.
- fsflover 1y ago
  Firefox is for-profit and centralized.

megous 1y ago

Linux based distributions solve this by not being a monoculture, no? Pandering to the masses would be in the form of specific desktop environment, and maybe specific distribution integrating it well with all kinds of desktop software. Nothing would change for the existing users of obscure software, hackishly stitched together.

bitmasher9 1y ago
Not at all. All Linux distributions essentially run the same software with different packages and configuration files. There are a few either/or choices they make, but it’s mostly overlap with very little disro specific software. If Linux software starts widely adapting more dark patterns it will probably impact users across all distributions.
- palata 1y ago
  I share that concern, but again: if more people move to Linux, maybe (?) more people will become advanced Linux user and maybe (?) it will bring more activity into advanced distros. Not that I believe it will necessarily be good, but I'm not sure it will necessarily be bad. Could go both ways, IMO.
- ekunazanu 1y ago
  > If Linux software starts widely adapting more dark patterns it will probably impact users across all distributions What is preventing people from just creating a fork?
monruhaqq 1y ago
Hey, you have a github or maybe just briefly expand on something for me, I'm interested in the luckfox pico bootloader you wrote and separately using it as USB via raw gadget which are things you've talked about last year, these are things I'm actually wanting to do with my otherwise untouched LF. (was planning on writing a poc for 2024-53197 (iirc that's the cve) I may be looking in the wrong place but your comment was one of the few things I came across referencing LF + usb gadget.

tiborsaas 1y ago

"oh no, the peasants are using MY operating system, this can't be good"

fsflover 1y ago
Just switch to Qubes OS, and you're special again. (Worked for me.)
palata 1y ago
I think it's more "they will give less control in order to please the peasants, and as a result I will lose control". And I agree with that concern, though my hope is that we can make it easier for the peasants without sacrificing control for the nerds (trying to find a word that would work with "peasant" in this context :D).
- Zambyte 1y ago
  I disagree with the concern, because obviously making Free Software easier for non-technically inclined people to use does not make the software harder for technically inclined people to use. This is strictly an issue for proprietary software.
  - HKH2 1y ago
    If they take out options, then you might have to maintain a fork or write a plugin to keep them.
    - Zambyte 1y ago
      And thus, nothing was lost except the superiority complex :)
      - samrus 1y ago
        And the time and effort it takes to maintian a project.

bitmasher9 1y ago

In some ways we are already seeing this. Have you ever opened a GitHub repository and the only installation/build instructions are for the AUR. I seem to run into this pretty frequently while looking at small projects.

palata 1y ago
What bothers me is when projects have a hard dependency on something like systemd or even Ubuntu, because most of the time it is not necessary and it means I can't use it. But other than that, as long as I can compile the project from source (and if it's done properly I don't need instructions for that), I'm fine. I would assume that a repo providing instructions for the AUR is already better than one assuming that "Linux == Ubuntu", because the developer knows at least one distro that is not Ubuntu :-).

palata 1y ago

I understand your point, and I genuinely hate when people try to put pressure on distros to essentially look more like Windows. On the other hand, I think it's great when companies or government try to move to Linux (if you're not a US company or the US government, it makes total sense to try not to depend on US software so much). But I want to believe that there is space for everybody. I wouldn't use Mint myself, but I convinced a couple friends to use it and it works really well! EU governments moving to european distros like Suse and the likes is great. And I will stay closer to "more advanced" distros like Gentoo or Alpine. The beauty of Linux is that there is not one Linux; it's about freedom of choice. Because many people move from Windows to Mint doesn't have to mean that it's hurting Gentoo, I think? Hopefully.

bigbuppo 1y ago
I wish Windows 11 looked more like Windows.

chii 1y ago

> the quality of the medium degrades. not necessarily. There's room to have the mass market make breakthroughs in laymen software for linux if there's sufficient demand. And having the mass market lowest common denominator doesnt remove the good stuff - they still exist and you could still choose to use them. This is esp. true for linux, where as you'd have fewer choice/customizability for windows as it's close sourced.

lvass 1y ago

How exactly is Linux becoming popular going to make my EXWM setup suck? To be fair, if it does get a large market share, some company is probably going to take MS's role and make a distro that sucks but many people use. But that shouldn't be an issue to existing users unless they take over something like a major DE and you insist on using that for some reason. For IT people, having the possibility of running a decent shell and sshd in most desktops would be terrific.

palata 1y ago
> some company is probably going to take MS's role and make a distro that sucks but many people use You mean other than Ubuntu and the likes?