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How to Get Foreign Keys Horribly Wrong
- jihadjihad 1y ago> Django will implicitly add an index on a ForeignKey field unless explicitly stated otherwise. This is nice to know if you're using Django, but as important to note is that neither Postgres nor SQLAlchemy / Alembic will do this automatically.
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- cogman10 1y agoThis sort of thing hasn't really done much to make me like ORMs. It seems like a lot of code to generate the tables in the first place and you STILL need to read the output scripts just to ensure the ORM isn't generating some garbage you didn't want. That seems like a lot of extra effort when a simple migration service (such as liquibase) could do the same work running SQL directly. No question on "which indexes are getting created and why". No deep knowledge of Django interactions with sql. Instead, it's just directly running the SQL you want to run.
- teaearlgraycold 1y agoI would say automatic migration generation isn’t a necessary or particularly important part of an ORM. ORMs are there to map your database relational objects to your client language’s objects.
- cjs_ac 1y agoI think the person you're replying to is arguing for using some sort of database migration library without using an ORM library. It's the same position I came to recently.
- teaearlgraycold 1y agoYes but they seem to have switched because they didn’t like ORM-generated migration code. I think that’s a bad reason to switch because it wasn’t an important part of ORMs in the first place. Basically, I want to know why they were even using ORMs before. I don’t want to go without an ORM because I’ll end up making one ad-hoc anyway. I’m not going to do work on raw tuples in my application code.
- Tostino 1y agoI'd call it an anti-feature for most long-lived projects that will end up needing migrations through its lifetime. I go the liquibase route for migrations, and just use the mapping portion of any ORM.
- pphysch 1y agoMost(?) devs nowadays are introduced to database migration tools as a DX feature. "Wow, 1-2 command and my app and database are in sync!" In reality, migration tools are 100% about data loss prevention. If you do not care about data loss, updating your schema is trivial, just drop everything and create. Dev environments should be stateless anyways, using separate data "fixtures" when needed. Data loss itself is a highly nuanced topic. Some data is replaceable, some might be protected in a separate store. So I agree that ORMs should challenge the assumption that automatic migration tools need to be part of their kitchen sink.
- teaearlgraycold 1y agoI like that they provide the basic structure of how to apply yet unseen migrations. But they don’t need to generate the SQL at all. You quickly learn to never trust the generated code. It always needs to be manually reviewed.
- wagwang 1y agoThe ORM auto migration tools are a 100% a DX feature. Obviously any serious application will have complicated migrations that outgrow the generated sql; doesn't mean its not a nice to have feature for quick iteration.
- pphysch 1y agoI largely agree, but the cargo-culting around every migration operation being "reversible" suggests everyone isn't on the same page here. Too much straddling of the line (gulf) between DX tool and production data management tool.
- solarkraft 1y agoBut that’s close to the same thing. No data loss is a non negotiable (or very expensive) requirement, so we have to make migrations work somehow.
- wvenable 1y agoI do read my migration scripts generated from an ORM to make sure my source code is correct. Liquibase starts with "Write your database change code in your preferred authoring tool in SQL, YAML, JSON, or XML." So instead of just having my ORM generate that and I just have to read them to ensure correctness, I have to manually write change scripts instead? I don't see how that's is comparable. Liquibase could certainly come in after I have some SQL scripts generated from my ORM and do whatever it does.
- rrauenza 1y agoHow can we determine if an index can be satisfied by a constraint index? For example, does the FK need to be the first field in a unique together?
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- aidos 1y agoI’ve done a lot of interviewing and I’ve discovered that many devs (even experienced ones) don’t understand the difference between indexes and foreign keys. My assumption is that people have used orms that automatically add the index for you when you create a relationship so they just conflate them all. Often they’ll say that a foreign key is needed to improve the performance and when you dig into it, their mental model is all wrong. The sense they have is that the other table gets some sort of relationship array structure to make lookups fast. It’s an interesting phenomenon of the abstraction. Don’t get me wrong, I love sqlalchemy and alembic but probably because I understand what’s happening underneath so I know the right way to hold it so things are efficient and migrations are safe.
- whyowhy3484939 1y agoVery strange if you ask me and disturbing. I don't know if I'd let such a dev touch a database. Of course nowadays we just vibe code and YOLO everything, but still. This is making me feel old.
- bevr1337 1y ago> their mental model is all wrong. Is it? In Postgres, all FK references must be to a column with a PK or unique constraint or part of another index. Additionally, Postgres and Maria (maybe all SQL?) automatically create indexes for PKs and unique constraints. There's a high likelihood that a foreign key is already indexed _in the other table_. Generally, I agree with your statement. Adding a FK won't magically improve performance or create useful indices. But, the presence of a FK or refactoring to support a FK does (tangentially) point back to that index.
- dakiol 1y agoIs this for real? I don’t know why anyone would deal with such amount of incidental complexity (django orm) when one can just use plain sql.
- twelve40 1y agowhy is this so surprising? every place i worked at, going back probably 6 jobs, was using an ORM (django, hibernate, or even a self-built one), they went on to get acquired by Twitter, Microsoft, Uber etc, so not completely stupid or obscure. Even if you have a personal dislike of ORMs, if you ever work with/for another team with an exiting codebase and a DB, chances are you will have to work with one.
- miggol 1y agoI don't want to defend Django here, surely this should be categorized as a bug. But on the other hand, for this situation to come up you have to be the following: - The kind of person to dive into the schema and worry about an unnecessary index - Smart enough to heed Django's warnings and use `Meta.UniqueConstraint` - Dumb enough to ignore Django's warnings and not use `Meta.Indexes` I think it's funny that the kind of dev that 100% relies on the ORM and would benefit from this warning would probably never find themselves in this gritty optimization situation in the first place. That being said, I enjoyed the article and learned something so maybe I'm the target audience and not them.
- northhnbesthn 1y agoThis seems like a fairly ORM 100-level thing. Read the documentation that comes with your ORM I guarantee it has a best practices section and a performance considerations section. N+1 is trivial and widely covered by every ORM as it’s a common thing. nb I use entity framework so ymmv, but EF Core especially newer versions with one-way updates and deletes have been good to me and migrations aren’t half bad either. The code is I think much easier on the eyes than python/django but that’s a personal pref.
- lelanthran 1y agoFTFA > Don't use unique_together, use UniqueConstraint instead > Always explicitly set db_index and add a comment > Always check the SQL generated by migrations before applying them > Provide reverse migration operations whenever possible > Use concurrent index operations in busy systems > Indexes on foreign keys are used indirectly by deletes > Use partial indexes when possible > Adjust the order of migration operations to reduce impact on live systems > Explicitly state tables to lock when using select_for_update > Use no_key=True when selecting a row for update to allow referencing objects to be created This seems like you need much more non-essential knowledge than simply knowing SQL. Just not using an ORM bypasses so many footguns! TBH, looking at the code to do this, it seems simpler to just bypass the ORM and use a thin wrapper to the DB. Since the language in use here supports reflection, every query can automagically return a proper object with typed fields, at which point you gotta ask yourself "what value am I getting out of the ORM in exchange for all these footguns?"