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>They'll just declare that modern medicine has recognized and assimilated the concepts of traditional Chinese medicine That's actually happening though. See t

>They'll just declare that modern medicine has recognized and assimilated the concepts of traditional Chinese medicine That's actually happening though. See this text for example: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Western-Medical-Acupuncture/dp/0702073180/ https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Western-Medical-Acupunct... Chinese civilization has had a population of hundreds of thousands of people going back many hundreds of years. It's not the least bit surprising that they've figured out useful stuff about medicine. Even if you believe that the TCM theories are wrong, and it was all trial and error, the default position should be that it's possible to identify useful treatments through trial and error. It's Western chauvinism to believe that useful treatments can only be discovered via Western methods.

teddyh 1y ago
> That's actually happening though. No, it is not. From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture>: “Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine and a component of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) in which thin needles are inserted into the body. Acupuncture is a pseudoscience; the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge, and it has been characterized as quackery.” (Now you either accuse Wikipedia of Western chauvinism or dismiss Wikipedia altogether.)
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
  Notice that Wikipedia talks about acupuncture vs "sham acupuncture". That's intellectually dishonest IMO. They should just compare acupuncture against placebo pills. The problem with making that comparison is that if you do, acupuncture beats placebo! So the western scientists who need acupuncture to lose had to come up with a new "placebo". Hence "sham acupuncture". The problem with "sham acupuncture" is that it is designed to mimic the physical sensation of acupuncture. But if you read the text I linked, it explains that acupuncture works primarily via the nervous system! So "sham acupuncture" is basically the real thing. Total intellectual dishonesty. Go on Amazon and search for "acupuncture mat". You'll find lots of plastic mats that don't penetrate the skin, but replicate the sensation of penetrative acupuncture, with many many 5-star reviews. I often fall asleep on an acupuncture mat. The sensation in my back muscles is unmistakeable after 15 minutes. Saying "acupuncture doesn't do anything", for me at least, is like saying "alcohol doesn't do anything". It's just absurd, and I don't need an RCT to classify it as absurd. (I've recommended acupuncture to others; some have an immediate strong response like me, others find it useless. Maybe it's variation in how the nervous system works.) Anyways, if you read the textbook I recommended, it says many of the same things as Wikipedia. The needle location doesn't matter a ton. The stuff about meridians has no scientific basis. That's why they call it a "Western Medical Acupuncture" text. But acupuncture is still a useful treatment and has proven so in many RCTs.
dkarl 1y ago
Acupuncture is like herbal supplements. There are studies you can point to if you want to defend it, which is handy for people who make money on it. I know a guy who worked for a veterinary clinic for years and used to bellyache about how the owner was a hippy dippy quack who was promoting alternative treatments like acupuncture and herbalism, and it was fine if people were morons and chose that stuff for themselves, but to use it on animals, yadda yadda yadda. Then he bought the clinic from her. Less than a year later, he was certified in veterinary acupuncture and was making sure that new vets he hired were down with alternative medicine. "There are studies...." Yeah, you knew about those studies before, when you were calling it an unethical scam. We all know what new information changed your mind, and it wasn't in veterinary journals, it was in the finances of the clinic you just bought. Lost a lot of respect for that guy overnight.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
  Well yeah, and the anti-vax people will point out that big pharma is making money off of the vaccines. That's not a counterargument.
  - dkarl 1y ago
    The whole point is that science is the difference. Vaccines work. The business of selling vaccines might be sleazy because of the way they go about it, but the product itself isn't a scam.
    - soco 1y ago
      It's like claiming that used cars were a scam only because used car dealers are... well you name them.
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
      "There are studies you can point to if you want to defend it, which is handy for people who make money on it." -- Anti-vaxxer

teddyh 1y ago

> That's actually happening though. No, it is not. From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture>: “Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine and a component of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) in which thin needles are inserted into the body. Acupuncture is a pseudoscience; the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge, and it has been characterized as quackery.” (Now you either accuse Wikipedia of Western chauvinism or dismiss Wikipedia altogether.)

0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
Notice that Wikipedia talks about acupuncture vs "sham acupuncture". That's intellectually dishonest IMO. They should just compare acupuncture against placebo pills. The problem with making that comparison is that if you do, acupuncture beats placebo! So the western scientists who need acupuncture to lose had to come up with a new "placebo". Hence "sham acupuncture". The problem with "sham acupuncture" is that it is designed to mimic the physical sensation of acupuncture. But if you read the text I linked, it explains that acupuncture works primarily via the nervous system! So "sham acupuncture" is basically the real thing. Total intellectual dishonesty. Go on Amazon and search for "acupuncture mat". You'll find lots of plastic mats that don't penetrate the skin, but replicate the sensation of penetrative acupuncture, with many many 5-star reviews. I often fall asleep on an acupuncture mat. The sensation in my back muscles is unmistakeable after 15 minutes. Saying "acupuncture doesn't do anything", for me at least, is like saying "alcohol doesn't do anything". It's just absurd, and I don't need an RCT to classify it as absurd. (I've recommended acupuncture to others; some have an immediate strong response like me, others find it useless. Maybe it's variation in how the nervous system works.) Anyways, if you read the textbook I recommended, it says many of the same things as Wikipedia. The needle location doesn't matter a ton. The stuff about meridians has no scientific basis. That's why they call it a "Western Medical Acupuncture" text. But acupuncture is still a useful treatment and has proven so in many RCTs.

dkarl 1y ago

Acupuncture is like herbal supplements. There are studies you can point to if you want to defend it, which is handy for people who make money on it. I know a guy who worked for a veterinary clinic for years and used to bellyache about how the owner was a hippy dippy quack who was promoting alternative treatments like acupuncture and herbalism, and it was fine if people were morons and chose that stuff for themselves, but to use it on animals, yadda yadda yadda. Then he bought the clinic from her. Less than a year later, he was certified in veterinary acupuncture and was making sure that new vets he hired were down with alternative medicine. "There are studies...." Yeah, you knew about those studies before, when you were calling it an unethical scam. We all know what new information changed your mind, and it wasn't in veterinary journals, it was in the finances of the clinic you just bought. Lost a lot of respect for that guy overnight.

0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
Well yeah, and the anti-vax people will point out that big pharma is making money off of the vaccines. That's not a counterargument.
- dkarl 1y ago
  The whole point is that science is the difference. Vaccines work. The business of selling vaccines might be sleazy because of the way they go about it, but the product itself isn't a scam.
  - soco 1y ago
    It's like claiming that used cars were a scam only because used car dealers are... well you name them.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
    "There are studies you can point to if you want to defend it, which is handy for people who make money on it." -- Anti-vaxxer