3 ms·

is anyone "serious" using micropython or lua for embedded work?

qart 1y ago
The embedded world is really vast. If it's something safety critical, regulations won't allow it. But the regulations say nothing about all the test rigs you'll be building. IoT is another domain where people do whatever they find convenient.
matt_trentini 1y ago
Yes, we use MicroPython for medical device development up to class B.
- 5d41402abc4b 1y ago
  How do you handle memory fragmentation?
  - matt_trentini 1y ago
    Carefully, at least for devices with higher classifications. Using pre/early allocation helps but, more importantly, we monitor memory use over time in realistic scenarios. We've built tooling, like a memory-profiler [1] that allows us to observe memory consumption and quantify performance over time. However, it turns out that MicroPython has a simple and efficient GC - and once you eliminate code that gratuitously fragments memory it behaves quite predictably. We've tested devices running realistic scenarios for months without failure. [1] https://github.com/pi-mst/micropython-memory-profiler https://github.com/pi-mst/micropython-memory-profiler
- xchip 1y ago
  Could you give a link to such devices?
  - matt_trentini 1y ago
    I can't reveal specific implementation details but I work for Planet Innovation: https://planetinnovation.com/ https://planetinnovation.com/ Some of our products use MicroPython though we also use a whole host of other technologies. Some of our devices are proof-of-concept (often designed to progress a theory) but we also deliver up to Class B solutions.
zevv 1y ago
I have been developing Lua-heavy embedded products as a freelancer for about 20 years now, including VoIP devices, home automation controllers, industrial routers, digital video recorders, and more. These systems typically consist of a Linux kernel, some libc implementation, the lua interpreter and a few 3d party libs support libs to help building the app. The Lua apps ranges from 30k to 100k lines of code, depending on the application. Some of these devices can be considered 'small' in 2025 terms: 8MB of flash, 64MB of ram. Lua is doing great here. All of these products are still alive today, actively supported and making my customers good money. Some things come very natural to Lua: Lua <=> C interfacing is a breeze, and while some modern languages are still struggling to figure out how to do proper async, Lua has been able to do this for decades. The language itself is minimal and simple but surprisingly powerful - a few smart constructs like coroutines, closures and metatables allow for a lot of different paradigms. For new projects at this scale, I would still choose Lua + C/C++ as my stack. Over the last few years I have been visiting other ecosystems to see what I'm missing out on (Elixir, Rust, Nim), and while I learned to love all of those, I found none of them as powerful, low-friction and flexible as Lua.
- mrheosuper 1y ago
  the article is comparing micropython and lua, so i assume this is about MCU, not embedded linux. Most of the time you have less than 1MB of ram on MCU
- conaclos 1y ago
  I am currently working on an embedded system with 264Kb of RAM and 4Mb of flash. Do you think Lua could be used in such limited settings? I am also considering the berry scripting language [0]. [0] https://berry-lang.github.io/ https://berry-lang.github.io/
  - mjevans 1y ago
    I haven't worked on a system that limited (not even OpenWRT routers) since a dev board in college. The experience I had there might be your best bet for something productive. That board came with a 'limited C-like compiler' (took a mostly complete subset of C syntax and transcribed it to ASM). You'll probably be doing a lot of things like executing in place from ROM, and strictly managing stack and scratch pad use. The 64MB of RAM and 8MB (I assume that's 64Mbit) of ROM allow for highly liberating things like compressed executable code copied to faster RAM, modify in place code, and enough spare RAM otherwise to use scripting languages and large buffers for work as desired.
pmarreck 1y ago
there are thousands of products that use Lua underneath or in some capacity. I investigated LuaJIT these past few months and I think it is underrated.
joezydeco 1y ago
Define "serious"? Every so often I have a need for a small cheap device interoperating with a larger system that I'm developing. Like something that sits on MODBUS and does a simple task when signalled. I've taken the RP2040 and Pico board and spun it into a gizmo that can do whatever I want with Micropython, and it's an order of magnitude cheaper and faster than trying to spin it up in STMCube.
jononor 1y ago
Just as one example, MicroPython is deployed in several satellites (cubesats). There are some conference talks and podcasts about it.

qart 1y ago

The embedded world is really vast. If it's something safety critical, regulations won't allow it. But the regulations say nothing about all the test rigs you'll be building. IoT is another domain where people do whatever they find convenient.

matt_trentini 1y ago

Yes, we use MicroPython for medical device development up to class B.

5d41402abc4b 1y ago
How do you handle memory fragmentation?
- matt_trentini 1y ago
  Carefully, at least for devices with higher classifications. Using pre/early allocation helps but, more importantly, we monitor memory use over time in realistic scenarios. We've built tooling, like a memory-profiler [1] that allows us to observe memory consumption and quantify performance over time. However, it turns out that MicroPython has a simple and efficient GC - and once you eliminate code that gratuitously fragments memory it behaves quite predictably. We've tested devices running realistic scenarios for months without failure. [1] https://github.com/pi-mst/micropython-memory-profiler https://github.com/pi-mst/micropython-memory-profiler
xchip 1y ago
Could you give a link to such devices?
- matt_trentini 1y ago
  I can't reveal specific implementation details but I work for Planet Innovation: https://planetinnovation.com/ https://planetinnovation.com/ Some of our products use MicroPython though we also use a whole host of other technologies. Some of our devices are proof-of-concept (often designed to progress a theory) but we also deliver up to Class B solutions.

zevv 1y ago

I have been developing Lua-heavy embedded products as a freelancer for about 20 years now, including VoIP devices, home automation controllers, industrial routers, digital video recorders, and more. These systems typically consist of a Linux kernel, some libc implementation, the lua interpreter and a few 3d party libs support libs to help building the app. The Lua apps ranges from 30k to 100k lines of code, depending on the application. Some of these devices can be considered 'small' in 2025 terms: 8MB of flash, 64MB of ram. Lua is doing great here. All of these products are still alive today, actively supported and making my customers good money. Some things come very natural to Lua: Lua <=> C interfacing is a breeze, and while some modern languages are still struggling to figure out how to do proper async, Lua has been able to do this for decades. The language itself is minimal and simple but surprisingly powerful - a few smart constructs like coroutines, closures and metatables allow for a lot of different paradigms. For new projects at this scale, I would still choose Lua + C/C++ as my stack. Over the last few years I have been visiting other ecosystems to see what I'm missing out on (Elixir, Rust, Nim), and while I learned to love all of those, I found none of them as powerful, low-friction and flexible as Lua.

mrheosuper 1y ago
the article is comparing micropython and lua, so i assume this is about MCU, not embedded linux. Most of the time you have less than 1MB of ram on MCU
conaclos 1y ago
I am currently working on an embedded system with 264Kb of RAM and 4Mb of flash. Do you think Lua could be used in such limited settings? I am also considering the berry scripting language [0]. [0] https://berry-lang.github.io/ https://berry-lang.github.io/
- mjevans 1y ago
  I haven't worked on a system that limited (not even OpenWRT routers) since a dev board in college. The experience I had there might be your best bet for something productive. That board came with a 'limited C-like compiler' (took a mostly complete subset of C syntax and transcribed it to ASM). You'll probably be doing a lot of things like executing in place from ROM, and strictly managing stack and scratch pad use. The 64MB of RAM and 8MB (I assume that's 64Mbit) of ROM allow for highly liberating things like compressed executable code copied to faster RAM, modify in place code, and enough spare RAM otherwise to use scripting languages and large buffers for work as desired.

pmarreck 1y ago

there are thousands of products that use Lua underneath or in some capacity. I investigated LuaJIT these past few months and I think it is underrated.

joezydeco 1y ago

Define "serious"? Every so often I have a need for a small cheap device interoperating with a larger system that I'm developing. Like something that sits on MODBUS and does a simple task when signalled. I've taken the RP2040 and Pico board and spun it into a gizmo that can do whatever I want with Micropython, and it's an order of magnitude cheaper and faster than trying to spin it up in STMCube.

jononor 1y ago

Just as one example, MicroPython is deployed in several satellites (cubesats). There are some conference talks and podcasts about it.