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I think it’s fascinating how languages shape our society. In this case, the ambiguity between free as in “at no cost” and free as in “freedom” is probably hurti
by jurgenaut23 1y ago
I think it’s fascinating how languages shape our society. In this case, the ambiguity between free as in “at no cost” and free as in “freedom” is probably hurting the FOSS landscape. In French, there are two very distinct terms for this: “gratuit” vs “libre”. And it doesn’t sound as an oxymoron to pay for a “logiciel libre”.
- LeoPanthera 1y ago“Gratis” meaning “no cost” is an English word, albeit an uncommonly used one.
- yawpitch 1y agoTechnically that’s a Latin word that just happens to have kept the same spelling and meaning in English.
- dpassens 1y ago> kept the same spelling and meaning in English So it's also an English word, then?
- yawpitch 1y agoArguably it’s really only an English word once it deviates from the original spelling and meaning. Like how the original British English “Aluminum” is now the American English word for the metal represented by the newer British English “Aluminium”, all of which borrowed from, but didn’t outright steal, the Latin roots.
- hnlmorg 1y agoYou’ve made the faux pas of presenting the spiel that a word’s etymology or genus means it cannot be English. While an entrepreneurial view, this mammoth disinformation is equivalent to plaza cafe sofa schmooze. (I know this isn’t the most coherent post I’ve ever made, but I wanted to make a point by cramming in as many borrowed words as I could)
- bigDinosaur 1y agoEnglish has not been in its final form forever, therefore there was a language or languages that preceded it. English words derive from one of these previous languages. Since a word from another language cannot be an English word, English does in fact not have any English words except ones that sprang arbitrarily out of nowhere.
- technothrasher 1y ago> English words derive from one of these previous languages. Since a word from another language cannot be an English word [...] You sabotage your own argument with these two sentences.
- bigDinosaur 1y agoI genuinely am shocked that someone could read what I wrote and think I was serious. Poe's law strikes again.
- thoroughburro 1y ago> Since a word from another language cannot be an English word This is false, so your argument is also false.
- bigDinosaur 1y agoAs per my other reply, I'm genuinely shocked that you took my comment to be serious. It's basically as satirical one can get of the position that a word cannot be a word in multiple languages. Poe's law and all that I suppose.
- yawpitch 1y agoI’m enjoying the schadenfreude (note, the English word, not the German one) of watching this thread unspool.
- nkrisc 1y agoTechnically it’s now both a Latin and English word. And several other languages as well.
- triska 1y agoOn the other hand, how come that the desired connotation is not the immediately prevailing one in the land of the free which is not the land of no cost.
- awestroke 1y agoNobody thinks of it as "land of the free" nowadays
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- edoceo 1y agoI do. Bit of a rough patch at the moment tho.
- immibis 1y agoConsider re-evaluating your beliefs. The more someone has to tell you that you're free, the less you actually are. C.f. North Korea.
- edoceo 1y agoI will not reconsider. I will work to make my belief reality.
- bigstrat2003 1y agoIf that was true, the US wouldn't have been free for almost its entire existence. Our national anthem, the lyrics to which are over 200 years old, call the nation "the land of the free". I doubt you would claim that the US has in fact been a tyranny for that entire time, so your metric must therefore be flawed.
- layer8 1y agoIt has become quite a stretch.
- 1y ago
- grishka 1y agoIn Russian as well, свободный vs бесплатный. Free software = свободное ПО, free beer = бесплатное пиво
- _9ptr 1y agoIsn't English actually the only language where "free" can also mean "at no cost"? German is the same as French in this regard, we have "kostenlos" (literally cost-less) "gratis" (the same) and "umsonst" (which interestingly can also mean "in vain").
- eurleif 1y agoThe German "frei" can mean "free of charge" sometimes: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/frei#Usage_notes https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/frei#Usage_notes
- _9ptr 1y agoHow could I forget about Freibier. Unverzeihlich.
- emmericp 1y ago(Native German speaker here), it's a very rare use of the word "free" and usually only used in fixed terms like "Freibier", it wouldn't even work for other drinks, e.g., you can't say "Freisaft" or "freier Saft" for free juice, it has to be kostenlos there. The other Wiktionary example of "freie Krankenversorgung" sounds wrong to be, but it seems to be used rarely in some more formal or legal contexts, no one would say it like this in a casual conversation. Google results also show a 4x difference between frei and kostenlos here in favor of kostenlos. But both are low since "Krankenversorgung" is already a very unusual word. I suspect many of those uses might be bad translations from English.
- KingOfCoders 1y ago"Freier Eintritt" seems to be used quite often.
- layer8 1y ago“Frei” can have the meaning of “kostenlos” (https://www.dwds.de/wb/frei#d-1-1-7 https://www.dwds.de/wb/frei#d-1-1-7), but these are limited circumstances that are usually perceived as metaphorical idioms. “Freie Software” has no direct connotation of being “free as in beer” (unlike “Freeware”).
- rwmj 1y agoJapanese: muryou (cost free) vs. jiyuu (freedom)
- crabmusket 1y agoI have seen OS projects use the word "libre" in English before to distinguish between "free as in beer" and "free as in speech" uses of the word. But I can't remember which projects I've seen using that.
- HappMacDonald 1y agoLibreOffice?
- amoshebb 1y agois an "as in free beer" project.
- contrarian1234 1y agoThe intention was great, but I find the word awkward. Leebraayyy It looks/sounds foreign and feels a bit pretentious to use in conversation .. or I feel like some gringo speaking broken Spanish
- layer8 1y agoIt’s a popular line of fragrances from YSL. ;)
- latexr 1y ago> It looks/sounds foreign and feels a bit pretentious to use in conversation “Entrepreneur” is worse on both counts, yet I don’t see those complaints about it. Must be because it’s associated with money.
- contrarian1234 1y agoSure sure, and Omelette, but once the word hits everyday usage it starts to feel different. There is a awkwardness hump to get through - and libre has a large one. So I feel it'll never catch on unfortunately
- kube-system 1y agoI think people on tech forums overestimate the significance of this in today’s world. Back in the early days of FOSS, when almost everyone who used software was also a programmer, it made a difference. Today, nearly all people who would care about libre software licenses, are aware of their existence. The vast majority of computer users today are just attempting to do some other task and do not give a shit about the device or the legal consequences of using it, even if you warn them. They simply don’t care about software.
- redbar0n 1y ago«Freedom software» is what they should call it. It would remove the awkward ad-hoc parentheses at every instance. Besides: The Americans will LOVE it!