4 ms·

Maybe travel is just too cheap and easy? I like the democratisation of globe trotting that has happened but it certainly has had negative consequences

beezlewax 1y ago
Yes! Let's make it only for the rich or better yet, why not just the oligarchs?
- ecshafer 1y ago
  Is the pollution and co2 production worth it so more people can take photos in front of things? Maybe it is, maybe it isnt.
  - graemep 1y ago
    > Is the pollution and co2 production worth it so more people can take photos in front of things? Taking photos in front of things is not, but that is not the only reason people travel.
- simgt 1y ago
  Or also for the "middle" class but as an expensive treat that would have been chosen over something else, like it used to be. After all the environmental cost of a 20€ EasyJet ticket isn't nothing.
- CalRobert 1y ago
  That’s a fair counter point, but I’m just saying that it did have negative consequences and we might want to consider it. It’s kinda crazy you can sometimes fly 6000 km for less than a few round trip train tickets between London and Edinburgh. I wonder if Americans’ pitifully short vacation allowance paired with high incomes is an issue. If you’re going to Japan for a week you’re likely to only hit a few top attractions, I imagine.
  - bananalychee 1y ago
    Perhaps it would help to frame the problem as domestic travel being too expensive as opposed to international travel being too cheap. By the way, overtourism is not a "there's too many Americans/Europeans who can afford vacations" problem, most tourists in Japan are from nearby East Asian countries. In fact, the share of tourists to Japan who come from the US and Europe has declined in recent years.
- anovikov 1y ago
  Well, problem here is that airlines are under control of national regulatory agencies while flying internationally. Sure, a mandate of say, drastically improving comfort levels by making something like an old-style business class seat (38" pitch recliner, 4 abreast in a narrowbody) the absolute allowed minimum - could work: it will make passengers happier, reduce air rage, and lift prices to the level that somewhat curbs overtourism. But it's impossible to introduce because if one nation does so it will simply make their airlines uncompetitive abroad.
  - CalRobert 1y ago
    Taxing aviation fuel seems like a reasonable start.
    - anovikov 1y ago
      Same problem here. "Just give airlines of nations that don't tax fuel, a boost at the expense of your own ones".
- armada651 1y ago
  How far do you want to take that? The oligarchs can fly back and forth to Japan every week, should the air fare be so cheap that everyone can do that?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
parpfish 1y ago
I think the more interesting story here wouldn’t be the “over tourism” of the globally desirable internet-famous locations— It’s all the little regional resort towns and tourism destinations that are now ignored. All over the US are locations that used to be the place where a people would go for a three day weekend or summer getaway. But now they are ghost towns because the cost of travel and the algorithm have reframed travel as global and not regional. Like… Niagara Falls used to be “the” honeymoon destination for couples in the northeast. Now it seems like every honeymoon is in a beachy tropical location and the falls have been gutted economically
- CalRobert 1y ago
  I understand this is what happened to UK beach towns when flying to Spain got cheap
  - clait 1y ago
    And quite possibly also because UK beach towns are generally sad and cold (except for Cornwall and Devon for two weeks per year), compared to Spain’s? Signed, someone living in the UK.
    - CalRobert 1y ago
      No argument there!
    - harimau777 1y ago
      This is something that I feel doesn't get discussed in a lot of these sorts of discussions (overtourism, local food, etc.). Reducing your carbon/social footprint by consuming locally is MUCH more enjoyable in some locations than in others.
      - parpfish 1y ago
        if you find your local region unenjoyable, change your local region
_fat_santa 1y ago
IMO it's not that travel is to cheap, it's that social media has created "hot spots" around the globe. Take a random example: 5 cute coffee shops around Paris, all of them have that Parisian vibe that tourists are looking for but one of them had an influencer walk in and make some content. Now that one shop is all over the internet and tourists are flocking to it, creating huge lines and overwhelming the business, while the other 4 shops sit at roughly the same level of popularity as they did before. The problem I see isn't that travel is democratized, it's that people are lazy at planning their trips and just go on social media and find these "hot spots" instead of actually doing their homework or heck even a little exploring around the city. And I get it, planning a trip and actually doing your homework is hard, it's much easier to get on TikTok and have the entire itinerary planned in one afternoon than spending weeks researching spots on your own.
- steveBK123 1y ago
  Yeah I argue with my wife about this. She lives her lists, and trawls her social media feeds for stuff. I prefer to have a loose agenda of which neighborhoods are interesting, pick one and wander it for an afternoon. Odds are we will find lots of interesting things. We usually meet in the middle and do a mix. More and more she admits in retrospect to having stressed herself out with building and following an agenda.
- anon-3988 1y ago
  > The problem I see isn't that travel is democratized, it's that people are lazy at planning their trips and just go on social media and find these "hot spots" instead of actually doing their homework or heck even a little exploring around the city. The problem is people are shallow. People are _actively_ seeking the queue. I know because I know people that are like this. They want to be part of the queue because...I am not sure why. To take a quick picture at a very specific angle to avoid the crowd? To make their followers think they are doing something great? To make them jealous? It is as if beauty have to be told and highlighted to them. They need a signboard that says "this is pretty, take a picture here!". They are not able to appreciate the minutiae of life. Of course, I am sounding mighty superior here, but I don't think I am wrong.
dumbledoren 1y ago
'Globe trotting' has been 'democraticized' only for the top income earners from the high-income countries. The rest of the world is not able to globe trot. Combined with digital nomadism, golden visas et al, this 'democratization' is a new form of colonization in which the high CoL countries' people can literally buy out poorer countries' most desirable regions or set themselves up as an aristocratic elite on top of the locals.
- GuB-42 1y ago
  It used to be the case, now the majority of the people in high-income countries and the high earners of medium-income countries can globe trot, it is a massive increase. As for the "colonial" aspect, Japan is not exactly a poor country. It is, in fact, a rather expensive destination (a bit less now because the Yen is cheap) and you will certainly not be seen as an aristocratic elite. You will be respected as a guest because that's how Japan works, but there is a line and it will become very clear if you ever attempt to cross it. I think that "colonial style" tourism is on the decline, simply because the world is developing and what used to be poor countries now do very well by themselves. They will still accept your money though.
  - dumbledoren 1y ago
    > It used to be the case, now the majority of the people in high-income countries and the high earners of medium-income countries can globe trot, it is a massive increase. Except that is still a ~20% minority at the top. And worse, they can only trot by gentrifying cheaper locations - they can't trot in central London, Ottawa, or Japan, bar a few who are much richer. > As for the "colonial" aspect, Japan is not exactly a poor country This new colonization phenomenon doesnt have much to do with those. Foreigners who earn more than their peers of equivalent level come into a country and they eventually push those, even including the white collars, out of their own cities by gentrifying them through long term or short term rentals, and especially through buying properties to live in or for 'investment' (speculation, really). This happened in Lisbon, Barcelona, Madrid, and is now happening in Valencia. It will inevitably happen in Japan. The only reason it has not happened yet is that Japan's digital nomad visa is just 6 months. If it starts giving out a year or more, you will see how fast the colonization will happen. It took only 2 years for Spain. Japan would likely be a more popular destination, so it could happen faster.
sherburt3 1y ago
Yeah travel should be a privilege reserved for the ultra rich so the lower classes can focus on working until their body is used up and then they can crawl in a hole and die.

beezlewax 1y ago

Yes! Let's make it only for the rich or better yet, why not just the oligarchs?

ecshafer 1y ago
Is the pollution and co2 production worth it so more people can take photos in front of things? Maybe it is, maybe it isnt.
- graemep 1y ago
  > Is the pollution and co2 production worth it so more people can take photos in front of things? Taking photos in front of things is not, but that is not the only reason people travel.
simgt 1y ago
Or also for the "middle" class but as an expensive treat that would have been chosen over something else, like it used to be. After all the environmental cost of a 20€ EasyJet ticket isn't nothing.
CalRobert 1y ago
That’s a fair counter point, but I’m just saying that it did have negative consequences and we might want to consider it. It’s kinda crazy you can sometimes fly 6000 km for less than a few round trip train tickets between London and Edinburgh. I wonder if Americans’ pitifully short vacation allowance paired with high incomes is an issue. If you’re going to Japan for a week you’re likely to only hit a few top attractions, I imagine.
- bananalychee 1y ago
  Perhaps it would help to frame the problem as domestic travel being too expensive as opposed to international travel being too cheap. By the way, overtourism is not a "there's too many Americans/Europeans who can afford vacations" problem, most tourists in Japan are from nearby East Asian countries. In fact, the share of tourists to Japan who come from the US and Europe has declined in recent years.
anovikov 1y ago
Well, problem here is that airlines are under control of national regulatory agencies while flying internationally. Sure, a mandate of say, drastically improving comfort levels by making something like an old-style business class seat (38" pitch recliner, 4 abreast in a narrowbody) the absolute allowed minimum - could work: it will make passengers happier, reduce air rage, and lift prices to the level that somewhat curbs overtourism. But it's impossible to introduce because if one nation does so it will simply make their airlines uncompetitive abroad.
- CalRobert 1y ago
  Taxing aviation fuel seems like a reasonable start.
  - anovikov 1y ago
    Same problem here. "Just give airlines of nations that don't tax fuel, a boost at the expense of your own ones".
armada651 1y ago
How far do you want to take that? The oligarchs can fly back and forth to Japan every week, should the air fare be so cheap that everyone can do that?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

parpfish 1y ago

I think the more interesting story here wouldn’t be the “over tourism” of the globally desirable internet-famous locations— It’s all the little regional resort towns and tourism destinations that are now ignored. All over the US are locations that used to be the place where a people would go for a three day weekend or summer getaway. But now they are ghost towns because the cost of travel and the algorithm have reframed travel as global and not regional. Like… Niagara Falls used to be “the” honeymoon destination for couples in the northeast. Now it seems like every honeymoon is in a beachy tropical location and the falls have been gutted economically

CalRobert 1y ago
I understand this is what happened to UK beach towns when flying to Spain got cheap
- clait 1y ago
  And quite possibly also because UK beach towns are generally sad and cold (except for Cornwall and Devon for two weeks per year), compared to Spain’s? Signed, someone living in the UK.
  - CalRobert 1y ago
    No argument there!
  - harimau777 1y ago
    This is something that I feel doesn't get discussed in a lot of these sorts of discussions (overtourism, local food, etc.). Reducing your carbon/social footprint by consuming locally is MUCH more enjoyable in some locations than in others.
    - parpfish 1y ago
      if you find your local region unenjoyable, change your local region

_fat_santa 1y ago

IMO it's not that travel is to cheap, it's that social media has created "hot spots" around the globe. Take a random example: 5 cute coffee shops around Paris, all of them have that Parisian vibe that tourists are looking for but one of them had an influencer walk in and make some content. Now that one shop is all over the internet and tourists are flocking to it, creating huge lines and overwhelming the business, while the other 4 shops sit at roughly the same level of popularity as they did before. The problem I see isn't that travel is democratized, it's that people are lazy at planning their trips and just go on social media and find these "hot spots" instead of actually doing their homework or heck even a little exploring around the city. And I get it, planning a trip and actually doing your homework is hard, it's much easier to get on TikTok and have the entire itinerary planned in one afternoon than spending weeks researching spots on your own.

steveBK123 1y ago
Yeah I argue with my wife about this. She lives her lists, and trawls her social media feeds for stuff. I prefer to have a loose agenda of which neighborhoods are interesting, pick one and wander it for an afternoon. Odds are we will find lots of interesting things. We usually meet in the middle and do a mix. More and more she admits in retrospect to having stressed herself out with building and following an agenda.
anon-3988 1y ago
> The problem I see isn't that travel is democratized, it's that people are lazy at planning their trips and just go on social media and find these "hot spots" instead of actually doing their homework or heck even a little exploring around the city. The problem is people are shallow. People are _actively_ seeking the queue. I know because I know people that are like this. They want to be part of the queue because...I am not sure why. To take a quick picture at a very specific angle to avoid the crowd? To make their followers think they are doing something great? To make them jealous? It is as if beauty have to be told and highlighted to them. They need a signboard that says "this is pretty, take a picture here!". They are not able to appreciate the minutiae of life. Of course, I am sounding mighty superior here, but I don't think I am wrong.

dumbledoren 1y ago

'Globe trotting' has been 'democraticized' only for the top income earners from the high-income countries. The rest of the world is not able to globe trot. Combined with digital nomadism, golden visas et al, this 'democratization' is a new form of colonization in which the high CoL countries' people can literally buy out poorer countries' most desirable regions or set themselves up as an aristocratic elite on top of the locals.

GuB-42 1y ago
It used to be the case, now the majority of the people in high-income countries and the high earners of medium-income countries can globe trot, it is a massive increase. As for the "colonial" aspect, Japan is not exactly a poor country. It is, in fact, a rather expensive destination (a bit less now because the Yen is cheap) and you will certainly not be seen as an aristocratic elite. You will be respected as a guest because that's how Japan works, but there is a line and it will become very clear if you ever attempt to cross it. I think that "colonial style" tourism is on the decline, simply because the world is developing and what used to be poor countries now do very well by themselves. They will still accept your money though.
- dumbledoren 1y ago
  > It used to be the case, now the majority of the people in high-income countries and the high earners of medium-income countries can globe trot, it is a massive increase. Except that is still a ~20% minority at the top. And worse, they can only trot by gentrifying cheaper locations - they can't trot in central London, Ottawa, or Japan, bar a few who are much richer. > As for the "colonial" aspect, Japan is not exactly a poor country This new colonization phenomenon doesnt have much to do with those. Foreigners who earn more than their peers of equivalent level come into a country and they eventually push those, even including the white collars, out of their own cities by gentrifying them through long term or short term rentals, and especially through buying properties to live in or for 'investment' (speculation, really). This happened in Lisbon, Barcelona, Madrid, and is now happening in Valencia. It will inevitably happen in Japan. The only reason it has not happened yet is that Japan's digital nomad visa is just 6 months. If it starts giving out a year or more, you will see how fast the colonization will happen. It took only 2 years for Spain. Japan would likely be a more popular destination, so it could happen faster.

sherburt3 1y ago

Yeah travel should be a privilege reserved for the ultra rich so the lower classes can focus on working until their body is used up and then they can crawl in a hole and die.