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We need to push to make this stuff legal. I wouldn't go so far as to say lets sell it OTC vape pens at gas stations but a middle ground where you can go to a do

We need to push to make this stuff legal. I wouldn't go so far as to say lets sell it OTC vape pens at gas stations but a middle ground where you can go to a doctor to have this treatment performed. I personally have never taken DMT though from everything I've read and heard on podcasts it's not something to be taken lightly. I think having a sort of "DMT Clinic" that you can go to would be the best middle ground of allowing the public access to these substances while also ensuring that there is a trained professional there to guide you through the process. Saying "trained professional" in this context feels wired because this stuff has been underground for so long but I think it's starting to bubble up into the mainstream enough that we need to start bringing all that "into the light". Lets have training programs that teach people how to administer this stuff properly, how to deal with the negative side effects, etc. One of the things that while I find understandable is ridiculous is the fact that Bill had to use a pseudonym in the community. I feel like if were at the point where you have C-suite types at Apple taking this stuff, it's time to think about making it available to the broader public.

fnord77 1y ago
5-Meo is kind of nasty because it has a non-linear pharmacology. the normal dose is 5-10mg, but LD50 in sheep is about 100mg, it might be as low as 30mg in humans. It absolutely should not be legal, at least to anyone. Perhaps require training in dealing with drugs with a low therapeutic index
- marssaxman 1y ago
  > it might be as low as 30mg in humans. That seems quite unlikely given that there are many 30mg dose trip reports, going as far back as TiHKAL.
- OldfieldFund 1y ago
  LD50 in sheep: 1–5 mg/kg IV 1–2 mg/kg SC 85 mg/kg O In mice: 75–115 mg/kg IP 48 mg/kg IV 113 mg/kg SC 278 mg/kg O They were administering over 30mg to humans in trials. (Metzner (2013); Shulgin and Shulgin (1997); Ott (2001); Davis et al. (2018); Uthaug et al. (2020a)) Sheep are susceptible to toxicity from certain tryptamine alkaloids because of their physiology. These alkaloids, especially those that are N,N-dimethylated, can trigger neurological symptoms in sheep, such as convulsions, spasticity, and gait issues. The alkaloids are suspected to affect the brain and spinal cord by interacting with serotonin receptors. 5-MeO-DMT is an N,N-dimethylated compound. Its full chemical name is 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. That indicates the presence of two methyl groups attached to the nitrogen atom of the tryptamine backbone. Stay safe, everyone!
  - gavinray 1y ago
    The Human-Equivalent Dose for IV administration is roughly ~300mg for a 100kg human.
- gavinray 1y ago
  Tell me you never studied basic med chem or pharmacology without telling me... You can't use animal models for dose, you have to convert to hED (Human-Equivalent Dosage). You can estimate this generally with allometric scaling: https://drughunter.com/practical-pk-calculators https://drughunter.com/practical-pk-calculators Also, animal physiology varies. Beta-adrenergic agonists like clenbuterol make mice wildly muscular, which unfortunately is not the case in humans, for example.
varelse 1y ago
[dead]
temp0826 1y ago
Fwiw, "DMT" usually refers to nn-DMT, which is a lot different than 5-MeO-DMT (or bufo).
kelseyfrog 1y ago
Agree, but the proponents of "Big Reality" really really really fight against its disruption.
- pdabbadabba 1y ago
  Could you explain what you mean by that? Who are the proponents of “big reality”? How do they fight against its disruption?
  - gregschlom 1y ago
    It's a joke. People often have conspiracy theories about Big Pharma trying to prevent access to novel drugs that could disrupt their cash cows. The parent was jokingly talking about "Big Reality" as an imaginary group of people who hate to see "reality" disrupted by psychedelic experiences.
    - colecut 1y ago
      I took it as being a joke in the way "the matrix" was "a movie"
    - aeon_ai 1y ago
      When someone has a profound psychedelic experience that shows them the arbitrary nature of many social constructs, or reveals possibilities for consciousness that mainstream science doesn't acknowledge... that's genuinely disruptive to systems built on those constructs. The resistance is real, systematic, and rational (from the perspective of maintaining current power arrangements). Not a joke.
      - jonathanlb 1y ago
        I'm curious whether you think that resistance is genuinely adversarial or more based on ignorance and institutional inertia. For example, someone might have insights about the interconnectedness of all life and wants to transition to regenerative agriculture or communal land use, but face zoning laws that enforce individual property ownership. Or someone might experience ego dissolution and wants to create more egalitarian workplace structures, but runs into rigid corporate hierarchies.
lukan 1y ago
"I think having a sort of "DMT Clinic" that you can go to would be the best middle ground " Well, Ayahuasca (with DMT as the active ingredient) retreats seem more and more common and are for some reasons tolerated more and more in europe. Technically it is illegal, but I can still book them online. But I won't, as I don't trust the competence of the average new age "shaman".
- copperx 1y ago
  I dislike the idea of potential life threatening toxicity, the constant vomiting, the feeling like shit for days. Ayahuasca trips seem to be like edging with poison. But maybe the documentary I saw was biased.
  - temp0826 1y ago
    With pharmahuasca or ayahuasca analogues maybe. With a normal/traditional brew it's essentially impossible to overdose (think like 3-4 liters of the stuff). Analogues like syrian rue are a lot easier to overdose though, it's a pretty small amount of material needed. Also the vast majority of people are done purging within a few hours...not "days" (Source: work at retreat center and have drank hundreds of times)
    - lukan 1y ago
      You seem to know, what you are doing. Is the retreat center where you work located in europe?
      - temp0826 1y ago
        No (and sorry I don't know enough european centers to suggest any. My perspective is that the substance you drink is only one part of it, the curandero and their experience is the other, and I can't imagine there would be a lot of traditional experience over there)
        lukan 1y ago
evmar 1y ago
The state of Oregon is experimenting along these lines: https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/preventionwellness/pages/psilocybin-what-are-psilocybin-services.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/preventionwellness/pages/psilo... "A client may only access psilocybin at a licensed service center during an administration session in the presence of a trained, licensed facilitator."
- hncomment 1y ago
  Oregon had gone with a broader decriminalization as of February 1, 2021, but rolled that back in 2024: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Oregon_Ballot_Measure_110 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Oregon_Ballot_Measure_110
chrisweekly 1y ago
"wired" -> weird
- GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
  immediately jogged my memory for one of my favorite stupid Simpsons moments: "why, there's no magazine called 'Weird' is there?" [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjZ0GBL9ArA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjZ0GBL9ArA
mosburger 1y ago
Last year I underwent treatments for my treatment-resistant major depression using Ketamine. It was a clinical setting, where you'd get wired up to blood pressure, pulse-ox, and other monitors while you were monitored by an RN via video camera. This was IV Ketamine, so not the inhalants that are available now. According to the clinic, the inhalants (which they also offered) are also generally less effective than IV, and the IV was safer in my case because I have other medical conditions where being able to "shut it off" was a good thing - you can turn an IV off, but once you inhale, you're on your own. So... this clinic was not entirely unlike what you're proposing w/ DMT. FWIW, the results were incredible. I was effectively "cured." But unfortunately my insurance changed, and it became no longer covered, and I couldn't afford the $2000 every six weeks for the treatment anymore. And it's not super convenient to take two hours off from work to go to the trip-sitter's to get the treatments. I hope that they figure out what it is in psychadelics that make them effective at treating stuff like depression and PTSD and make it more accessible because it seems like there's so much potential there. (Also: fuck Elon Musk for making Ketamine a punchline)
- notpushkin 1y ago
  > being able to "shut it off" was a good thing - you can turn an IV off, but once you inhale, you're on your own How does it work? Is the half-life of it shorter when administered IV?
  - sneak 1y ago
    Only a little. Not enough to serve as an escape hatch. It depends on the infusion rate, of course, but you’re talking a difference of maybe 15-20 minutes.
  - gavinray 1y ago
    I had a Ketamine infusion done at a clinic in Miami. It was $600 (discounted) for the first infusion. You go through a pre-evaluation with the doctor, where they determine a dosage for you based on prior experience and bodyweight. My clinic also offered to co-administer IV benzos to prevent panic attacks or negative experiences, which was a HUGE plus for me. During the experience you're given a button, which you can press to call them and have the drip turned off or turned down. If it wasn't so expensive or covered by my insurance, I would've certainly repeated it. Highly recommend.
shpongled 1y ago
N,N-DMT is very intense and not to be taken lightly - but you could say the same with LSD, psilocybin, etc. Personally, I am much more wary of large doses of LSD/psilocybin than DMT, in part to the substantially longer duration of the former. Ego death and the complete dissolution of reality makes it harder to have a bad trip
- fnord77 1y ago
  user name checks out
- gavinray 1y ago
  I'd generally agree with you, but: > substantially longer duration of the former When time stops until the end of this universe gives way to the beginning of this universe and the snake eats it's tail, "longer" doesn't hold much meaning...
  - shpongled 1y ago
    True, I should have qualified "actual" duration, not perceived duration!
hncomment 1y ago
A wise legalization might help with access & harm-reduction... but legalizations are sometimes bungled. In the SF bay area – & plenty of other regions around the world – the criminal enforcement against hallucinogens is, de facto, a very low priority as long as you're not flagrantly endangering or inconveniencing others.

fnord77 1y ago

5-Meo is kind of nasty because it has a non-linear pharmacology. the normal dose is 5-10mg, but LD50 in sheep is about 100mg, it might be as low as 30mg in humans. It absolutely should not be legal, at least to anyone. Perhaps require training in dealing with drugs with a low therapeutic index

marssaxman 1y ago
> it might be as low as 30mg in humans. That seems quite unlikely given that there are many 30mg dose trip reports, going as far back as TiHKAL.
OldfieldFund 1y ago
LD50 in sheep: 1–5 mg/kg IV 1–2 mg/kg SC 85 mg/kg O In mice: 75–115 mg/kg IP 48 mg/kg IV 113 mg/kg SC 278 mg/kg O They were administering over 30mg to humans in trials. (Metzner (2013); Shulgin and Shulgin (1997); Ott (2001); Davis et al. (2018); Uthaug et al. (2020a)) Sheep are susceptible to toxicity from certain tryptamine alkaloids because of their physiology. These alkaloids, especially those that are N,N-dimethylated, can trigger neurological symptoms in sheep, such as convulsions, spasticity, and gait issues. The alkaloids are suspected to affect the brain and spinal cord by interacting with serotonin receptors. 5-MeO-DMT is an N,N-dimethylated compound. Its full chemical name is 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. That indicates the presence of two methyl groups attached to the nitrogen atom of the tryptamine backbone. Stay safe, everyone!
- gavinray 1y ago
  The Human-Equivalent Dose for IV administration is roughly ~300mg for a 100kg human.
gavinray 1y ago
Tell me you never studied basic med chem or pharmacology without telling me... You can't use animal models for dose, you have to convert to hED (Human-Equivalent Dosage). You can estimate this generally with allometric scaling: https://drughunter.com/practical-pk-calculators https://drughunter.com/practical-pk-calculators Also, animal physiology varies. Beta-adrenergic agonists like clenbuterol make mice wildly muscular, which unfortunately is not the case in humans, for example.

varelse 1y ago

[dead]

temp0826 1y ago

Fwiw, "DMT" usually refers to nn-DMT, which is a lot different than 5-MeO-DMT (or bufo).

kelseyfrog 1y ago

Agree, but the proponents of "Big Reality" really really really fight against its disruption.

pdabbadabba 1y ago
Could you explain what you mean by that? Who are the proponents of “big reality”? How do they fight against its disruption?
- gregschlom 1y ago
  It's a joke. People often have conspiracy theories about Big Pharma trying to prevent access to novel drugs that could disrupt their cash cows. The parent was jokingly talking about "Big Reality" as an imaginary group of people who hate to see "reality" disrupted by psychedelic experiences.
  - colecut 1y ago
    I took it as being a joke in the way "the matrix" was "a movie"
  - aeon_ai 1y ago
    When someone has a profound psychedelic experience that shows them the arbitrary nature of many social constructs, or reveals possibilities for consciousness that mainstream science doesn't acknowledge... that's genuinely disruptive to systems built on those constructs. The resistance is real, systematic, and rational (from the perspective of maintaining current power arrangements). Not a joke.
    - jonathanlb 1y ago
      I'm curious whether you think that resistance is genuinely adversarial or more based on ignorance and institutional inertia. For example, someone might have insights about the interconnectedness of all life and wants to transition to regenerative agriculture or communal land use, but face zoning laws that enforce individual property ownership. Or someone might experience ego dissolution and wants to create more egalitarian workplace structures, but runs into rigid corporate hierarchies.

lukan 1y ago

"I think having a sort of "DMT Clinic" that you can go to would be the best middle ground " Well, Ayahuasca (with DMT as the active ingredient) retreats seem more and more common and are for some reasons tolerated more and more in europe. Technically it is illegal, but I can still book them online. But I won't, as I don't trust the competence of the average new age "shaman".

copperx 1y ago
I dislike the idea of potential life threatening toxicity, the constant vomiting, the feeling like shit for days. Ayahuasca trips seem to be like edging with poison. But maybe the documentary I saw was biased.
- temp0826 1y ago
  With pharmahuasca or ayahuasca analogues maybe. With a normal/traditional brew it's essentially impossible to overdose (think like 3-4 liters of the stuff). Analogues like syrian rue are a lot easier to overdose though, it's a pretty small amount of material needed. Also the vast majority of people are done purging within a few hours...not "days" (Source: work at retreat center and have drank hundreds of times)
  - lukan 1y ago
    You seem to know, what you are doing. Is the retreat center where you work located in europe?
    - temp0826 1y ago
      No (and sorry I don't know enough european centers to suggest any. My perspective is that the substance you drink is only one part of it, the curandero and their experience is the other, and I can't imagine there would be a lot of traditional experience over there)
      - lukan 1y ago

evmar 1y ago

The state of Oregon is experimenting along these lines: https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/preventionwellness/pages/psilocybin-what-are-psilocybin-services.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/preventionwellness/pages/psilo... "A client may only access psilocybin at a licensed service center during an administration session in the presence of a trained, licensed facilitator."

hncomment 1y ago
Oregon had gone with a broader decriminalization as of February 1, 2021, but rolled that back in 2024: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Oregon_Ballot_Measure_110 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Oregon_Ballot_Measure_110

chrisweekly 1y ago

"wired" -> weird

GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
immediately jogged my memory for one of my favorite stupid Simpsons moments: "why, there's no magazine called 'Weird' is there?" [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjZ0GBL9ArA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjZ0GBL9ArA

mosburger 1y ago

Last year I underwent treatments for my treatment-resistant major depression using Ketamine. It was a clinical setting, where you'd get wired up to blood pressure, pulse-ox, and other monitors while you were monitored by an RN via video camera. This was IV Ketamine, so not the inhalants that are available now. According to the clinic, the inhalants (which they also offered) are also generally less effective than IV, and the IV was safer in my case because I have other medical conditions where being able to "shut it off" was a good thing - you can turn an IV off, but once you inhale, you're on your own. So... this clinic was not entirely unlike what you're proposing w/ DMT. FWIW, the results were incredible. I was effectively "cured." But unfortunately my insurance changed, and it became no longer covered, and I couldn't afford the $2000 every six weeks for the treatment anymore. And it's not super convenient to take two hours off from work to go to the trip-sitter's to get the treatments. I hope that they figure out what it is in psychadelics that make them effective at treating stuff like depression and PTSD and make it more accessible because it seems like there's so much potential there. (Also: fuck Elon Musk for making Ketamine a punchline)

notpushkin 1y ago
> being able to "shut it off" was a good thing - you can turn an IV off, but once you inhale, you're on your own How does it work? Is the half-life of it shorter when administered IV?
- sneak 1y ago
  Only a little. Not enough to serve as an escape hatch. It depends on the infusion rate, of course, but you’re talking a difference of maybe 15-20 minutes.
- gavinray 1y ago
  I had a Ketamine infusion done at a clinic in Miami. It was $600 (discounted) for the first infusion. You go through a pre-evaluation with the doctor, where they determine a dosage for you based on prior experience and bodyweight. My clinic also offered to co-administer IV benzos to prevent panic attacks or negative experiences, which was a HUGE plus for me. During the experience you're given a button, which you can press to call them and have the drip turned off or turned down. If it wasn't so expensive or covered by my insurance, I would've certainly repeated it. Highly recommend.

shpongled 1y ago

N,N-DMT is very intense and not to be taken lightly - but you could say the same with LSD, psilocybin, etc. Personally, I am much more wary of large doses of LSD/psilocybin than DMT, in part to the substantially longer duration of the former. Ego death and the complete dissolution of reality makes it harder to have a bad trip

fnord77 1y ago
user name checks out
gavinray 1y ago
I'd generally agree with you, but: > substantially longer duration of the former When time stops until the end of this universe gives way to the beginning of this universe and the snake eats it's tail, "longer" doesn't hold much meaning...
- shpongled 1y ago
  True, I should have qualified "actual" duration, not perceived duration!

hncomment 1y ago

A wise legalization might help with access & harm-reduction... but legalizations are sometimes bungled. In the SF bay area – & plenty of other regions around the world – the criminal enforcement against hallucinogens is, de facto, a very low priority as long as you're not flagrantly endangering or inconveniencing others.