4 ms·

IMHO the problem is: OpenAI wants 3000W to run a high-end multi-GPU server to serve 1000 users paying $20/month each. They've got $20,000/month of income from

IMHO the problem is: OpenAI wants 3000W to run a high-end multi-GPU server to serve 1000 users paying $20/month each. They've got $20,000/month of income from the server, if they can power it. Grandma wants 3000W to run her central AC, so she can live comfortably in Phoenix, Arizona. She's got $2,300/month of pension income. If you try to raise the per-kWh price of electricity to reduce demand, OpenAI won't be the ones who get priced out. It'll be Grandma.

gambiting 1y ago
Every utility in the world does separate business and residential rates for this very reason.
- bagels 1y ago
  And they charge business 1/4 the rate!
  - gambiting 1y ago
    Do they? Here in the UK it's been a huge problem for years now that residential rates have been locked to basically ~25p/kWh, but businesses have been paying 3 or 4 times that, it bankrupted so many places when their monthly bills literally went from like 2k a month to 8k a month. It's the reason why charging a car at home is so much cheaper than at public charging stations, they just cannot get the same rates since they are classed as businesses.
    - azinman2 1y ago
      Opposite in the US
      - kelseyfrog 1y ago
        Can I incorporate in order to take advantage of the reduced rate?
        azinman2 1y ago
        I’d assume you’d have to for your business/industrial zoned location.
    - ryao 1y ago
      Commercial and industrial rates are lower than residential rates in the US and elsewhere. The bigger users are apparently better at negotiating rates while the residential customers take what they are given.
      - BobaFloutist 1y ago
        Which leads to the hilarious edge case of saving money by charging your car at a Tesla Supercharger instead of at home, because they're paying that much less for electricity than you.
        ryao 1y ago
        In NY at least, Tesla super chargers charge rates above residential rates, so that does not actually happen unless you are grandfathered into unlimited free supercharging.
    - ben_w 1y ago
      I left the UK in 2018 so this may be a strange question: I remember news about a massive but very brief energy price hike around when Russia began their "special operation" and everyone said "right, no more Russian gas", so is that hike still present? I'd search, but the first few results get me geo-blocked because I'm not in the UK.
      - gambiting 1y ago
        >>and everyone said "right, no more Russian gas", so is that hike still present? Absolutely. Shell and BP still make record profits while home price cap has gone down a little bit but generally everyone is still paying through the nose for their electricity.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    Seems more like 3/4 the rate here
    - onecommentman 1y ago
      And in the rest of the US as shown here: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...
      - giantg2 1y ago
        Very nice. It seems the 3/4 rate for commercial use is almost universal.
throwaway984393 1y ago
[dead]
nradov 1y ago
Grandma's AC doesn't run 24×7. Most utility districts have some sort of subsidy or rate limit program for low income customers. Ultimately the only way to supply the constant power consumption demanded by data centers and keep consumer prices reasonable will be to build more fission power plants. This approach has several serious cost and safety issues but it's the only thing we're certain will work.
- bryanlarsen 1y ago
  > but it's the only thing we're certain will work. Nothing, not even nuclear, has 100% coverage with 100% reliability. And anything less than 100% can be handled with statistics. The goal is 99.99%, because that's the grid reliability so there is no significant benefit for going over that. 99.99% reliability with a combo of wind, solar and batteries is cheaper than nuclear. The cheapest is 95% solar/wind/batteries and 5% natural gas.
  - mapt 1y ago
    We're using natural gas peaking so far, but this is actually still not that cheap. I am of the attitude that even with no additional fossil fuel infrastructure constructed, we would be fine if we made an effort. A mix for new generation of something like 70% solar/wind/batteries, 10% better grid interties, 10% expanded peaking hydro, and 10% a better system of load modulation, works just fine. Load following with a market rate for things like water heaters, car chargers, and various industrial processes is something that's been implemented in other countries half-seriously, but only treated as an epithet or a scam here. To actually work, you can't just "Charge people a market rate" and expect them to fiddle with the breaker box, you have to actually integrate that feed into a decision-making algorithm run by home automation, which can make distinctions like "We need the car to be 90% full by 7AM, but we can adjust between charging at 1KW and charging at 6KW to minimize expected billing based on a minute to minute rate schedule. The water heater can range between 130F and 160F as required due to a mixing valve. The average dew point in the HVAC system needs to stay between 40F and 60F on a three-hourly basis, but can be modulated in ten minute increments according to demand." These sorts of interfaces need to be simple enough that Grandma can establish them conversationally. Grid interties allow Los Angeles to sell Boston sunlight and Chicago to sell Houston wind. Peaking hydro is just pumped storage minus the new pump and the new dam. An existing hydroelectric dam just gets refitted for twice as many generators and starts running on a 50% duty cycle, while allowing more variation in the water level.
stefan_ 1y ago
In a parallel world where OpenAI is profitable, anyway.
bodiekane 1y ago
Not the point you meant to make, but, maybe Grandma shouldn't live in a place that requires constant use of an air conditioner to be survivable. Americans keep moving to places that are fairly inhospitable to humans - too hot, too little water, etc. It'd be nice to see migration patterns shift away from the currently popular deserts and hurricane-prone coasts.
- cute_boi 1y ago
  The situation is even grim if you look into Vegas.
  - gonzopancho 1y ago
    Born and raised in Vegas. My father was also born and lived his entire life in Vegas. You’re not wrong.
- khuey 1y ago
  Grandma lives in Phoenix because Los Angeles made it impossible to build enough homes to keep housing costs reasonable near the temperate coast.
- SllX 1y ago
  The places with the nicest climates to build in also don’t want more building to happen and do everything in their power to prevent it, so people are migrating to those places, but people are also getting priced out of those places and moving to cheaper locales in the desert and in hurricane-prone areas.
- Tadpole9181 1y ago
  Yeah, just don't live where it's cold and don't live where it's hot! The corporations need that power!
msgodel 1y ago
At least here industrial users have to pay spot power prices so they immediately see large rises in cost if their demand/power factor messes with the grid.
onetokeoverthe 1y ago
[dead]

gambiting 1y ago

Every utility in the world does separate business and residential rates for this very reason.

bagels 1y ago
And they charge business 1/4 the rate!
- gambiting 1y ago
  Do they? Here in the UK it's been a huge problem for years now that residential rates have been locked to basically ~25p/kWh, but businesses have been paying 3 or 4 times that, it bankrupted so many places when their monthly bills literally went from like 2k a month to 8k a month. It's the reason why charging a car at home is so much cheaper than at public charging stations, they just cannot get the same rates since they are classed as businesses.
  - azinman2 1y ago
    Opposite in the US
    - kelseyfrog 1y ago
      Can I incorporate in order to take advantage of the reduced rate?
      - azinman2 1y ago
        I’d assume you’d have to for your business/industrial zoned location.
  - ryao 1y ago
    Commercial and industrial rates are lower than residential rates in the US and elsewhere. The bigger users are apparently better at negotiating rates while the residential customers take what they are given.
    - BobaFloutist 1y ago
      Which leads to the hilarious edge case of saving money by charging your car at a Tesla Supercharger instead of at home, because they're paying that much less for electricity than you.
      - ryao 1y ago
        In NY at least, Tesla super chargers charge rates above residential rates, so that does not actually happen unless you are grandfathered into unlimited free supercharging.
  - ben_w 1y ago
    I left the UK in 2018 so this may be a strange question: I remember news about a massive but very brief energy price hike around when Russia began their "special operation" and everyone said "right, no more Russian gas", so is that hike still present? I'd search, but the first few results get me geo-blocked because I'm not in the UK.
    - gambiting 1y ago
      >>and everyone said "right, no more Russian gas", so is that hike still present? Absolutely. Shell and BP still make record profits while home price cap has gone down a little bit but generally everyone is still paying through the nose for their electricity.
- giantg2 1y ago
  Seems more like 3/4 the rate here
  - onecommentman 1y ago
    And in the rest of the US as shown here: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...
    - giantg2 1y ago
      Very nice. It seems the 3/4 rate for commercial use is almost universal.

throwaway984393 1y ago

[dead]

nradov 1y ago

Grandma's AC doesn't run 24×7. Most utility districts have some sort of subsidy or rate limit program for low income customers. Ultimately the only way to supply the constant power consumption demanded by data centers and keep consumer prices reasonable will be to build more fission power plants. This approach has several serious cost and safety issues but it's the only thing we're certain will work.

bryanlarsen 1y ago
> but it's the only thing we're certain will work. Nothing, not even nuclear, has 100% coverage with 100% reliability. And anything less than 100% can be handled with statistics. The goal is 99.99%, because that's the grid reliability so there is no significant benefit for going over that. 99.99% reliability with a combo of wind, solar and batteries is cheaper than nuclear. The cheapest is 95% solar/wind/batteries and 5% natural gas.
- mapt 1y ago
  We're using natural gas peaking so far, but this is actually still not that cheap. I am of the attitude that even with no additional fossil fuel infrastructure constructed, we would be fine if we made an effort. A mix for new generation of something like 70% solar/wind/batteries, 10% better grid interties, 10% expanded peaking hydro, and 10% a better system of load modulation, works just fine. Load following with a market rate for things like water heaters, car chargers, and various industrial processes is something that's been implemented in other countries half-seriously, but only treated as an epithet or a scam here. To actually work, you can't just "Charge people a market rate" and expect them to fiddle with the breaker box, you have to actually integrate that feed into a decision-making algorithm run by home automation, which can make distinctions like "We need the car to be 90% full by 7AM, but we can adjust between charging at 1KW and charging at 6KW to minimize expected billing based on a minute to minute rate schedule. The water heater can range between 130F and 160F as required due to a mixing valve. The average dew point in the HVAC system needs to stay between 40F and 60F on a three-hourly basis, but can be modulated in ten minute increments according to demand." These sorts of interfaces need to be simple enough that Grandma can establish them conversationally. Grid interties allow Los Angeles to sell Boston sunlight and Chicago to sell Houston wind. Peaking hydro is just pumped storage minus the new pump and the new dam. An existing hydroelectric dam just gets refitted for twice as many generators and starts running on a 50% duty cycle, while allowing more variation in the water level.

stefan_ 1y ago

In a parallel world where OpenAI is profitable, anyway.

bodiekane 1y ago

Not the point you meant to make, but, maybe Grandma shouldn't live in a place that requires constant use of an air conditioner to be survivable. Americans keep moving to places that are fairly inhospitable to humans - too hot, too little water, etc. It'd be nice to see migration patterns shift away from the currently popular deserts and hurricane-prone coasts.

cute_boi 1y ago
The situation is even grim if you look into Vegas.
- gonzopancho 1y ago
  Born and raised in Vegas. My father was also born and lived his entire life in Vegas. You’re not wrong.
khuey 1y ago
Grandma lives in Phoenix because Los Angeles made it impossible to build enough homes to keep housing costs reasonable near the temperate coast.
SllX 1y ago
The places with the nicest climates to build in also don’t want more building to happen and do everything in their power to prevent it, so people are migrating to those places, but people are also getting priced out of those places and moving to cheaper locales in the desert and in hurricane-prone areas.
Tadpole9181 1y ago
Yeah, just don't live where it's cold and don't live where it's hot! The corporations need that power!

msgodel 1y ago

At least here industrial users have to pay spot power prices so they immediately see large rises in cost if their demand/power factor messes with the grid.

onetokeoverthe 1y ago

[dead]