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Executed Chinese prisoners likely used in UK exhibition (2021)

andsoitis 1y ago
[flagged]
- adamnemecek 1y ago
  Maybe this is not the best time and place for this sentiment.
  - circlefavshape 1y ago
    Why? Because it goes against the general sentiment of the comments?
    - g-b-r 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - g-b-r 1y ago
      I don't see any reason for the flagging of my sibling comment, those who can please have a look at it and consider vouching for it.
alwa 1y ago
Bizarre that this category of touring show continues after all these years. It seems like such self-consciously guilty behavior on the part of the organizers: you don’t accidentally end up with human corpses (that you’re selling as entertainment on the basis of being human corpses!). They came by them somehow. If the nature of someplace’s justice system is that a death sentence comes with a “turned-to-plastic-and-paraded-around-for-selfies” enhancement, so as to trouble the offender’s eternal soul as well as their life, then just.. say that. “They’re ’bad guys’ and we as a company believe that’s what bad guys deserve.” Or even, “we weren’t involved in the circumstances of their death, but we figure if we’d had a chance to ask them they probably would be fine with it.” As morally repugnant as I find the entire endeavor, I bet it wouldn’t even hurt ticket sales: people in the West have, in the not-so-distant past, treated hangings and beheadings as social occasions. But like, there’s a right way to do informed consent—why not just do it and say “yeah we did it the obvious way”? Come to think of it… the ambiguity sure is a reliable path to free attention. It wouldn’t be the first marketing strategy to rely on provocation…
- throwawaymaths 1y ago
  i don't think i would object to the category per se -- i could be persuaded to donate my body to such an exhibit especially if they told me they gave me a consent form that was like "here are the possibilities, check the ones that tickle you".
  - g-b-r 1y ago
    Why donate? They're making money out of that, why wouldn't you demand a payment? It would make sense to both get payed immediately and have a percentage of the future revenues sent to your family. Although this opens another can of worms, and seems in general a repulsive business to me.
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      If the exhibit paid for bodies, instead of relying on donations, then people would complain that they exploit the poor. Which is not an invalid way of looking at it.
      - g-b-r 1y ago
        Well, they would say it if they wouldn't pay them enough. There are bigger problems than that, though, with bigger incentives to kill someone (in addition to those that the people involved with the exhibition have). So, if they really think that exhibition has educational value (and enough of that to justify it), they should operate as a non-profit, with no revenue out of it, and with at most modest compensations to everyone involved.
      - toast0 1y ago
        People say that even without a payment to the donor's estate, because donating offsets the cost of disposal that would otherwise accrue to the estate. Personally, I would consider donating my body to an exhibit in consideration of being exhibited; although I'm not much of an exhibitionist, so I'd still have to think about it. Similarly, I think I'd like to be respectfully dumped in a body farm, so forensic scientists can get more data about bodies that are less respectfully dumped in various places; that's an experience my body wouldn't be able to have except through donation or murder, and I'd rather not be murdered.
LatteLazy 1y ago
The problem is there is no evidence of this. Just claims based on other people who don't know but claim it and so on all the way down...
- g-b-r 1y ago
  > They were obtained from a firm in Dalian, China which has used corpses acquired from the Chinese police, according to a previous investigation by the New York Attorney General’s Office. Not to mention that given the risks they should produce evidence that it's not so, and that the deceased freely consented to it.
mock-possum 1y ago
Ooh I think I’ve seen this black mirror episode
aaron695 1y ago
[dead]
booleandilemma 1y ago
I saw this back in the early 2000s as part of a biology class. Really interesting exhibit.
GlassOwAter 1y ago
Sadly, I read about this in 2008 when I was researching an exhibition in the United States and then obviously decided not to go.
noman-land 1y ago
I was taken to the Body Worlds[0] exhibit when it was going around and it was extremely fascinating and disturbing. At the time I knew nothing about it, but when I was looking at the exhibits I noticed that many of people displayed looked Chinese. There were even children in the exhibits. Trying to imagine how those bodies ended up there for us to look at was a very discomforting thought and I didn't enjoy thinking about that at all. Very unusual experience. [0] https://bodyworlds.com/ https://bodyworlds.com/
- DocTomoe 1y ago
  Body Worlds - at least when I started in the 1990s (and their website claims: as well as today) - was a 100% european-bodies from volunteers exibition.
  - maxglute 1y ago
    As a Bodies enthusiast, anything pre 97 including Body World can be relatively uncontested - PRC execution was still bullet to back of skull then. Lethal injection transition took until 2010s. All the drama/allegations around executed bodies started popping up during transition period. Mostly around Dalian which became hub of plastination. I think collection went from like 20-200+ bodies over that period. IIRC von Hagen had to return a few bodies he thought was sus. Falungong made claims these were prisoner bodies - there was big FLG round up in late 90s.
lupusreal 1y ago
Reminds me of Return of the Living Dead: Frank: International treaty, all skeletons come from India. Freddy: No kidding, how come? Frank: How the hell do I know how come? The important question is, where do they get all the skeletons with perfect teeth? Apparently skeletons from India really was a big thing: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45738-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45738-6
IlikeKitties 1y ago
The obviously morally bankrupt dead people exhibition is morally bankrupt? I would never have guessed.
tokai 1y ago
Its been know for a long time that Chinese prisoners bodies are used as a resource.[0] I bet this use in exhibition is one of the least detestable uses, sadly. [0]https://www.theguardian.com/science/2005/sep/13/medicineandhealth.china https://www.theguardian.com/science/2005/sep/13/medicineandh...
Thoreandan 1y ago
Bonus: They leak! https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-jun-04-et-quick4.4-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-jun-04-et-quick...
cryptonector 1y ago
Disgusting.

[flagged]

adamnemecek 1y ago
Maybe this is not the best time and place for this sentiment.
- circlefavshape 1y ago
  Why? Because it goes against the general sentiment of the comments?
  - g-b-r 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - g-b-r 1y ago
    I don't see any reason for the flagging of my sibling comment, those who can please have a look at it and consider vouching for it.

alwa 1y ago

Bizarre that this category of touring show continues after all these years. It seems like such self-consciously guilty behavior on the part of the organizers: you don’t accidentally end up with human corpses (that you’re selling as entertainment on the basis of being human corpses!). They came by them somehow. If the nature of someplace’s justice system is that a death sentence comes with a “turned-to-plastic-and-paraded-around-for-selfies” enhancement, so as to trouble the offender’s eternal soul as well as their life, then just.. say that. “They’re ’bad guys’ and we as a company believe that’s what bad guys deserve.” Or even, “we weren’t involved in the circumstances of their death, but we figure if we’d had a chance to ask them they probably would be fine with it.” As morally repugnant as I find the entire endeavor, I bet it wouldn’t even hurt ticket sales: people in the West have, in the not-so-distant past, treated hangings and beheadings as social occasions. But like, there’s a right way to do informed consent—why not just do it and say “yeah we did it the obvious way”? Come to think of it… the ambiguity sure is a reliable path to free attention. It wouldn’t be the first marketing strategy to rely on provocation…

throwawaymaths 1y ago
i don't think i would object to the category per se -- i could be persuaded to donate my body to such an exhibit especially if they told me they gave me a consent form that was like "here are the possibilities, check the ones that tickle you".
- g-b-r 1y ago
  Why donate? They're making money out of that, why wouldn't you demand a payment? It would make sense to both get payed immediately and have a percentage of the future revenues sent to your family. Although this opens another can of worms, and seems in general a repulsive business to me.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    If the exhibit paid for bodies, instead of relying on donations, then people would complain that they exploit the poor. Which is not an invalid way of looking at it.
    - g-b-r 1y ago
      Well, they would say it if they wouldn't pay them enough. There are bigger problems than that, though, with bigger incentives to kill someone (in addition to those that the people involved with the exhibition have). So, if they really think that exhibition has educational value (and enough of that to justify it), they should operate as a non-profit, with no revenue out of it, and with at most modest compensations to everyone involved.
    - toast0 1y ago
      People say that even without a payment to the donor's estate, because donating offsets the cost of disposal that would otherwise accrue to the estate. Personally, I would consider donating my body to an exhibit in consideration of being exhibited; although I'm not much of an exhibitionist, so I'd still have to think about it. Similarly, I think I'd like to be respectfully dumped in a body farm, so forensic scientists can get more data about bodies that are less respectfully dumped in various places; that's an experience my body wouldn't be able to have except through donation or murder, and I'd rather not be murdered.

LatteLazy 1y ago

The problem is there is no evidence of this. Just claims based on other people who don't know but claim it and so on all the way down...

g-b-r 1y ago
> They were obtained from a firm in Dalian, China which has used corpses acquired from the Chinese police, according to a previous investigation by the New York Attorney General’s Office. Not to mention that given the risks they should produce evidence that it's not so, and that the deceased freely consented to it.

mock-possum 1y ago

Ooh I think I’ve seen this black mirror episode

aaron695 1y ago

[dead]

booleandilemma 1y ago

I saw this back in the early 2000s as part of a biology class. Really interesting exhibit.

GlassOwAter 1y ago

Sadly, I read about this in 2008 when I was researching an exhibition in the United States and then obviously decided not to go.

noman-land 1y ago

I was taken to the Body Worlds[0] exhibit when it was going around and it was extremely fascinating and disturbing. At the time I knew nothing about it, but when I was looking at the exhibits I noticed that many of people displayed looked Chinese. There were even children in the exhibits. Trying to imagine how those bodies ended up there for us to look at was a very discomforting thought and I didn't enjoy thinking about that at all. Very unusual experience. [0] https://bodyworlds.com/ https://bodyworlds.com/

DocTomoe 1y ago
Body Worlds - at least when I started in the 1990s (and their website claims: as well as today) - was a 100% european-bodies from volunteers exibition.
- maxglute 1y ago
  As a Bodies enthusiast, anything pre 97 including Body World can be relatively uncontested - PRC execution was still bullet to back of skull then. Lethal injection transition took until 2010s. All the drama/allegations around executed bodies started popping up during transition period. Mostly around Dalian which became hub of plastination. I think collection went from like 20-200+ bodies over that period. IIRC von Hagen had to return a few bodies he thought was sus. Falungong made claims these were prisoner bodies - there was big FLG round up in late 90s.

lupusreal 1y ago

Reminds me of Return of the Living Dead: Frank: International treaty, all skeletons come from India. Freddy: No kidding, how come? Frank: How the hell do I know how come? The important question is, where do they get all the skeletons with perfect teeth? Apparently skeletons from India really was a big thing: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45738-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45738-6

IlikeKitties 1y ago

The obviously morally bankrupt dead people exhibition is morally bankrupt? I would never have guessed.

tokai 1y ago

Its been know for a long time that Chinese prisoners bodies are used as a resource.[0] I bet this use in exhibition is one of the least detestable uses, sadly. [0]https://www.theguardian.com/science/2005/sep/13/medicineandhealth.china https://www.theguardian.com/science/2005/sep/13/medicineandh...

Thoreandan 1y ago

Bonus: They leak! https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-jun-04-et-quick4.4-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-jun-04-et-quick...

cryptonector 1y ago

Disgusting.