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I profoundly dislike the politics of most “leaders” for lack of a better word in the world of tech, but here I am typing these words in an iPhone. Refusing to u

I profoundly dislike the politics of most “leaders” for lack of a better word in the world of tech, but here I am typing these words in an iPhone. Refusing to use something because of who created it or who benefits from it is a bit too much I think, to the point of being unworkable depending on the case. In other words as much as I’d like to vote with my wallet that is not always practical. And that extends to everything, not only tech.

michaelmrose 1y ago
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- AStonesThrow 1y ago
  [dead]
- ChocolateGod 1y ago
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  - CursedSilicon 1y ago
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    - ChocolateGod 1y ago
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      - mapt 1y ago
        He's not a member of the Nazi Party. The Nazi party hasn't existed in a long time. At this point in time, "literal Nazi" cannot mean, contextually, direct subservience to Adolph Hitler. He's dead. He's a member of a loose collection of white nationalist and "neo-Nazi" belief circles, and has promoted the modern counterpart to the Nazi ideology, the AFD, "urging them to move beyond guilt about their past". Notably, he's not as fully committed to nativism or racial purity as some of his counterparts; He unilaterally caused a bit of a split in the GOP due to his need to rely on H1B labor, and we have hours-long recordings of his discussions & arguments with other people in this ideological cluster on Twitter Live.
        ChocolateGod 1y ago
        For someone to be a literal nazi, to meet the "literal" part they must either be a member of a nazi party or subscribe to beliefs of them. You can and should criticise Musk for his actions and views, especially his populist dogma, but calling him a nazi in hyperbole is a disrespect to the actual victims of Nazis, especially as anti semitism is alive and kicking again. I personally believe Musk knows next to nothing about European politics, and his random support for people is more about rocking the boat and "trolling" the establishment than any meaningful support as he once did to Trump.
        mapt 1y ago
        Actual victims of people like Elon Musk, Stephen Miller, and Laura Loomer are literally being gathered off the streets thousands at a time and sent to concentration camps. Call it trolling all you like, but we just funded our immigration enforcement agency at a level consistent with being one the larger militaries in the world. Adolph Hitler's partisan ideology, to the extent that it different from general German ideology at the time, was a phenomenon from 1919 to 1945. The Holocaust death camps range from 1942 to 1945. If you're examining "Ideology" from a behavioral lens, you don't get to look at behavior analogous to the Nazis in the 1930's and excuse it as "Not Nazi Enough". If you're examining "Ideology" as explicit/implicit endorsement by reference, that's happening too, regardless of whether you want to wrap it in layers of irony. Elon Musk just set his large AI company's flagship up as a 4chan/pol/ member that calls itself "Mecha-Hitler" and offers explicit, detailed antisemitic critiques; This is not even the first time (see the South African Genocide). If you want to see the character of these people, prove it in the breach - listen to him argue with his collection of ethnonationalist sycophants on Twitter about whether he should be allowed to hire Indian slave labor to run his tech. Your motte appears to be that the use of the word "Nazi" must refer to a direct continuation of the political party of Adolph Hitler as passed down through partisan rules of succession, for the usage of "literally", as opposed to either of these frames. I reject this pedantry as motivated reasoning. This term has power and that power is needed because shit's going down again in similar ways. In critiquing a cartoon not produced by Disney as derivative, "He's a sort of Mickey Mouse" might describe any number of cartoon characters that give off the same vibe, versus saying "He's literally Mickey Mouse" describes a blatant ripoff or even actionable IP violation. Obviously these people are not being selected for office by the Fuhrer, and "Literally" has a useful meaning here separate from that designation. Whereas "Nazi" might be diluted into common hyperbole over the decades, "Literal Nazi" stands as essential terminology to refer to somebody who endorses ideas compatible with Umberto Eco's list, who puts into practice Roger Griffin's "Palingenetic ultranationalism", who scapegoats an ethnic minority to the point of advocating violent action, while at the same time adopting & hanging out with those adopting some of the symbology of the historical German fascist state.
      - motorest 1y ago
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        ChocolateGod 1y ago
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  - foldr 1y ago
    Even the literal literal Nazis didn’t campaign for minorities to be sent to gas chambers. If you’re going to do this silly pedantic act about how no-one in 2025 can literally be a Nazi, at least do it right.
- collyw 1y ago
  "literal Nazi" What utter nonsense.
  - UltraSane 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - b112 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - guappa 1y ago
        Well, right wing lovers at work have asked me to take down sarcastic images of elon musk doing a "totally not nazi" salute, just in case someone who voted for trump might be offended.
      - stirfish 1y ago
        He knew what he was doing, and he knew people would say "what about Obama" or whatever. This is not the first time Musk has violated a societal norm for attention, he just went way too far this time.
      - maest 1y ago
        He didn't just extend his arm, the whole motion matters. I am having a hard time believing you are arguing in good faith.
        b112 1y ago
        Yes, the whole motion matters. I've seen lots of historical documentaries with footage, and I've never seen a nazi salute with that motion. You have to really work at it, to think Elon made such a salute, but others have not. It's ridiculous and absurd. When I see and hear mad lunacy amd character assassination such as this, I immediately think "well everything else said about Elon must be made up too" You speak of "good faith", do you know what this means? It means that best intentions should be presumed, not worst, when examining the acts of others. Have you done this?
ulfw 1y ago
I'd love to know a reason why not to use an iPhone because of Apple's leader. Is he not right wing enough like Musk?
- giingyui 1y ago
  We all have our ideas on politics. Not all ideas are as universal as some think or pretend.
  - freejazz 1y ago
    For sure, hence the question...
  - davidw 1y ago
    "Nazis are bad" ought to be pretty damn universal. We're not talking "has different ideas about corporate taxation or environmental regulation" like, say, Mitt Romney.
    - exoverito 1y ago
      The Roman Empire engaged in genocide and slavery against many of their adversaries, yet Rome is still viewed as the peak of ancient civilization. The USSR imprisoned millions and caused the deaths of tens of millions more, yet leftists try focusing on the free healthcare and education. The United States engaged in ethnic cleansing of the native Americans, yet given enough time, such crimes have faded in saliency. Manifest Destiny was actually the inspiration for Hitler's ideas of lebensraum, invasion of Russia, and genocide of the Slavs. If Hitler had won he probably would have been considered more akin to Caesar or Napoleon. History is written by the victors and all that.
      - davidw 1y ago
        Ancient Rome is history, not an example to follow. Connecting the USSR with free health care and education is, uh, "nice try, but completely wide of the mark". We have free education in the US after all, as do most wealthy countries. Denmark and Italy are night and day from the USSR politically and economically. I think you can both recognize that the past of the US has some very ugly moments while still thinking the ideals were directionally correct and that we should attempt to live up to them.
motorest 1y ago
[flagged]
- giingyui 1y ago
  >"If there's a Nazi at the table and ten other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with eleven Nazis." Change nazi for any other adjective and you will see how absurd it is.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - WindyMiller 1y ago
    Different words mean different things. "Tall people can reach things on high shelves." Change "tall" for any other adjective and you will see how absurd it is.
    - ChocolateGod 1y ago
      If I'm at a bar and one man is a pedo, does that mean all people at the bar are pedos? If we're going by objectively terrible things to be, even though the definition of nazi is very loose to now mean anyone to the right of far left because of it's overuse. The Nazi bar argument does not do itself any favours and is in ways self-defeating. The majority do not care what someone else's political views are and arguments that shame people for doing so will just lead to increases in populism.
      - guappa 1y ago
        If you are a regular at a bar of a well known nazi, you're a nazi.
      - motorest 1y ago
        > If I'm at a bar and one man is a pedo, does that mean all people at the bar are pedos? If that guy is a regular known for being a vocal supporter and often engages in discussions in said bar with attendees over how right he is and how reasonable his opinions are, and you still decide to stay and engage in those discussions still without thinking there is anything wrong with that... yeah, you are.
matthewdgreen 1y ago
It’s not a question of who benefits from it. It’s that the place got weird and creepy and the algorithm is maximizing for engagement of an unpleasant type. I quit last July because I couldn’t stand the angry know-nothing blue checks being promoted into my replies and the cryptocurrency scams.
jmcqk6 1y ago
> Refusing to use something because of who created it or who benefits from it is a bit too much I think, to the point of being unworkable depending on the case. Having a hard and fast rule that can always be applied about this is impossible. We're just too interconnected and interdependent, and there are too many unknowns. That doesn't mean we can just ignore it and not think about it. We owe it to each other to still do our best, even if it's not going to be perfect.

michaelmrose 1y ago

[flagged]

AStonesThrow 1y ago
[dead]
ChocolateGod 1y ago
[flagged]
- CursedSilicon 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - ChocolateGod 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - mapt 1y ago
      He's not a member of the Nazi Party. The Nazi party hasn't existed in a long time. At this point in time, "literal Nazi" cannot mean, contextually, direct subservience to Adolph Hitler. He's dead. He's a member of a loose collection of white nationalist and "neo-Nazi" belief circles, and has promoted the modern counterpart to the Nazi ideology, the AFD, "urging them to move beyond guilt about their past". Notably, he's not as fully committed to nativism or racial purity as some of his counterparts; He unilaterally caused a bit of a split in the GOP due to his need to rely on H1B labor, and we have hours-long recordings of his discussions & arguments with other people in this ideological cluster on Twitter Live.
      - ChocolateGod 1y ago
        For someone to be a literal nazi, to meet the "literal" part they must either be a member of a nazi party or subscribe to beliefs of them. You can and should criticise Musk for his actions and views, especially his populist dogma, but calling him a nazi in hyperbole is a disrespect to the actual victims of Nazis, especially as anti semitism is alive and kicking again. I personally believe Musk knows next to nothing about European politics, and his random support for people is more about rocking the boat and "trolling" the establishment than any meaningful support as he once did to Trump.
        mapt 1y ago
        Actual victims of people like Elon Musk, Stephen Miller, and Laura Loomer are literally being gathered off the streets thousands at a time and sent to concentration camps. Call it trolling all you like, but we just funded our immigration enforcement agency at a level consistent with being one the larger militaries in the world. Adolph Hitler's partisan ideology, to the extent that it different from general German ideology at the time, was a phenomenon from 1919 to 1945. The Holocaust death camps range from 1942 to 1945. If you're examining "Ideology" from a behavioral lens, you don't get to look at behavior analogous to the Nazis in the 1930's and excuse it as "Not Nazi Enough". If you're examining "Ideology" as explicit/implicit endorsement by reference, that's happening too, regardless of whether you want to wrap it in layers of irony. Elon Musk just set his large AI company's flagship up as a 4chan/pol/ member that calls itself "Mecha-Hitler" and offers explicit, detailed antisemitic critiques; This is not even the first time (see the South African Genocide). If you want to see the character of these people, prove it in the breach - listen to him argue with his collection of ethnonationalist sycophants on Twitter about whether he should be allowed to hire Indian slave labor to run his tech. Your motte appears to be that the use of the word "Nazi" must refer to a direct continuation of the political party of Adolph Hitler as passed down through partisan rules of succession, for the usage of "literally", as opposed to either of these frames. I reject this pedantry as motivated reasoning. This term has power and that power is needed because shit's going down again in similar ways. In critiquing a cartoon not produced by Disney as derivative, "He's a sort of Mickey Mouse" might describe any number of cartoon characters that give off the same vibe, versus saying "He's literally Mickey Mouse" describes a blatant ripoff or even actionable IP violation. Obviously these people are not being selected for office by the Fuhrer, and "Literally" has a useful meaning here separate from that designation. Whereas "Nazi" might be diluted into common hyperbole over the decades, "Literal Nazi" stands as essential terminology to refer to somebody who endorses ideas compatible with Umberto Eco's list, who puts into practice Roger Griffin's "Palingenetic ultranationalism", who scapegoats an ethnic minority to the point of advocating violent action, while at the same time adopting & hanging out with those adopting some of the symbology of the historical German fascist state.
    - motorest 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - ChocolateGod 1y ago
        [flagged]
- foldr 1y ago
  Even the literal literal Nazis didn’t campaign for minorities to be sent to gas chambers. If you’re going to do this silly pedantic act about how no-one in 2025 can literally be a Nazi, at least do it right.
collyw 1y ago
"literal Nazi" What utter nonsense.
- UltraSane 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - b112 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - guappa 1y ago
      Well, right wing lovers at work have asked me to take down sarcastic images of elon musk doing a "totally not nazi" salute, just in case someone who voted for trump might be offended.
    - stirfish 1y ago
      He knew what he was doing, and he knew people would say "what about Obama" or whatever. This is not the first time Musk has violated a societal norm for attention, he just went way too far this time.
    - maest 1y ago
      He didn't just extend his arm, the whole motion matters. I am having a hard time believing you are arguing in good faith.
      - b112 1y ago
        Yes, the whole motion matters. I've seen lots of historical documentaries with footage, and I've never seen a nazi salute with that motion. You have to really work at it, to think Elon made such a salute, but others have not. It's ridiculous and absurd. When I see and hear mad lunacy amd character assassination such as this, I immediately think "well everything else said about Elon must be made up too" You speak of "good faith", do you know what this means? It means that best intentions should be presumed, not worst, when examining the acts of others. Have you done this?

ulfw 1y ago

I'd love to know a reason why not to use an iPhone because of Apple's leader. Is he not right wing enough like Musk?

giingyui 1y ago
We all have our ideas on politics. Not all ideas are as universal as some think or pretend.
- freejazz 1y ago
  For sure, hence the question...
- davidw 1y ago
  "Nazis are bad" ought to be pretty damn universal. We're not talking "has different ideas about corporate taxation or environmental regulation" like, say, Mitt Romney.
  - exoverito 1y ago
    The Roman Empire engaged in genocide and slavery against many of their adversaries, yet Rome is still viewed as the peak of ancient civilization. The USSR imprisoned millions and caused the deaths of tens of millions more, yet leftists try focusing on the free healthcare and education. The United States engaged in ethnic cleansing of the native Americans, yet given enough time, such crimes have faded in saliency. Manifest Destiny was actually the inspiration for Hitler's ideas of lebensraum, invasion of Russia, and genocide of the Slavs. If Hitler had won he probably would have been considered more akin to Caesar or Napoleon. History is written by the victors and all that.
    - davidw 1y ago
      Ancient Rome is history, not an example to follow. Connecting the USSR with free health care and education is, uh, "nice try, but completely wide of the mark". We have free education in the US after all, as do most wealthy countries. Denmark and Italy are night and day from the USSR politically and economically. I think you can both recognize that the past of the US has some very ugly moments while still thinking the ideals were directionally correct and that we should attempt to live up to them.

motorest 1y ago

[flagged]

giingyui 1y ago
>"If there's a Nazi at the table and ten other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with eleven Nazis." Change nazi for any other adjective and you will see how absurd it is.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- WindyMiller 1y ago
  Different words mean different things. "Tall people can reach things on high shelves." Change "tall" for any other adjective and you will see how absurd it is.
  - ChocolateGod 1y ago
    If I'm at a bar and one man is a pedo, does that mean all people at the bar are pedos? If we're going by objectively terrible things to be, even though the definition of nazi is very loose to now mean anyone to the right of far left because of it's overuse. The Nazi bar argument does not do itself any favours and is in ways self-defeating. The majority do not care what someone else's political views are and arguments that shame people for doing so will just lead to increases in populism.
    - guappa 1y ago
      If you are a regular at a bar of a well known nazi, you're a nazi.
    - motorest 1y ago
      > If I'm at a bar and one man is a pedo, does that mean all people at the bar are pedos? If that guy is a regular known for being a vocal supporter and often engages in discussions in said bar with attendees over how right he is and how reasonable his opinions are, and you still decide to stay and engage in those discussions still without thinking there is anything wrong with that... yeah, you are.

matthewdgreen 1y ago

It’s not a question of who benefits from it. It’s that the place got weird and creepy and the algorithm is maximizing for engagement of an unpleasant type. I quit last July because I couldn’t stand the angry know-nothing blue checks being promoted into my replies and the cryptocurrency scams.

jmcqk6 1y ago

> Refusing to use something because of who created it or who benefits from it is a bit too much I think, to the point of being unworkable depending on the case. Having a hard and fast rule that can always be applied about this is impossible. We're just too interconnected and interdependent, and there are too many unknowns. That doesn't mean we can just ignore it and not think about it. We owe it to each other to still do our best, even if it's not going to be perfect.