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Also the experience of Greece not too far back and the austerity imposed by Germany is not quite forgotten. Varoufakis[1] can attest to its severity. The Greek

by mc32 1y ago

Also the experience of Greece not too far back and the austerity imposed by Germany is not quite forgotten. Varoufakis[1] can attest to its severity. The Greeks voted against it but Germany imposed its will. [1]https://jacobin.com/2025/07/yanis-varoufakis-on-the-legacy-of-greeces-oxi-referendum https://jacobin.com/2025/07/yanis-varoufakis-on-the-legacy-o...

isodev 1y ago
And yet, Greece recovered to become a leading economy in the region. The propaganda is strong on the airwaves these days, just like in the US, one shouldn’t react to “facts” taken out of context. It seems (from here), support for Russia is somehow magically going down as Russia’s economy is having trouble paying for its “support” abroad.
- jazzyjackson 1y ago
  In which region is Greece a leading economy?
  - dr_kretyn 1y ago
    In a region composed of Greece, North Macedonia and Cyprus.
    - kyriakos 1y ago
      Doesn't sound right https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_... Cyprus ranks 17th and Greece 32nd
- petesergeant 1y ago
  > And yet, Greece recovered to become a leading economy in the region I don't think that's true ... growth is good, but that's because there's a lot of catching up to do. If I remember correctly (and maybe I don't) then real GDP is still like -20% vs 2007, debt is EU-leading at like 150% of GDP, unemployment remains high, and wages remain low.
- shakow 1y ago
  > to become a leading economy in the region. Leading compared to what, Romania and North Macedonia? > support for Russia is somehow magically going down I don't think support for Russia was ever notably involved in the whole clusterfuck regarding the Greek economy.
- xdennis 1y ago
  I'm not quite sure about that. Romania is bigger because it has a bigger population, but look even at this GDP per capita comparison with Romania. Greece: 31695 (2008), 25756 (2025), 31014 (2030, projected) Romania: 10435 (2008), 21421 (2025), 28809 (2030, projected) It won't be until 2030 that Greece will recover, and I'm pretty sure it's slow growth is because of its huge debt because of the euro.
gbil 1y ago
This is a very distant view for the reasons behind the crisis in Greece and for sure the government of 2015 was not a victim. In the context of this thread, Bulgarians as Greeks before them, enjoy the money from the EU but don’t like the responsibility that comes from it, to reform, to also contribute and that you lose the own currency perks while you gain on other fronts. Of course there is a lot more here to discuss but this is my experience being a Greek in Greece.
- W3zzy 1y ago
  The government was not the victim in deed. But up until today you can see the results amongst the population. You can Prune for growt or you can just cut the plant to the ground hoping it will survive.
- omnimus 1y ago
  Greece was sacrificed so eurozone (especialy Germany) could hide recession by bailing out banks (through bailing out Hreece). Greeks know and believe this. That makes their relationship with EU quite complicated.
spookie 1y ago
You know, there's Greece and Portugal. Mentioning these two as they got Troika following them. Portugal managed to get out of the storm, and debt is now below GDP. Greece took many bad steps trying to recover. And its debt shows that. Their governments have had a big part of the blame. Hell, at one point they didnt have enough money for citizens to withdraw from banks. And that was before Troika.
- Ygg2 1y ago
  > And its debt shows that. Their governments have had a big part of the blame. Hell, at one point they didnt have enough money for citizens to withdraw from banks. Sure but so do the creditors. If you keep giving mortgages to anyone with a drivers license that's on you buddy. At almost no point is there enough money for citizens to withdraw their money. Modern banks don't keep their assets as cash.
  - guappa 1y ago
    > If you keep giving mortgages to anyone with a drivers license that's on you buddy. Isn't this the USA system?
    - Ygg2 1y ago
      Not just the USA system. EU and especially German banks gave plenty of credits to Greek banks, knowing that they will probably spend it on German products, even if they have not much means to repay them. Plus, the EU knows full well that if Greeks overspend they can easily be pressured into austerity. This went swimmingly for everyone involved, with Greece now in more debt than ever (debt went from 145.45% of GDP to 209.40% of GDP). And fascist parties going from virtually non-existent to mainstays. Adding low-efficiency countries like those in southeastern Europe is great for the EU's major exporter - Germany, because it adds more customers who have Euros, and because it devalues the Euro, which means more exports. Better yet, because of Euro the new joiners can't devalue their currency and get their exports high enough to restart the economy, with only viable option being more in debt and/or leaving for Germany, while obliterating the local industries. Win-win-win. For the EU exporters. So, yes, let's celebrate Bulgaria joining Hotel EU, where food is great, your bill grows exponentially, but you can't ever leave. By the end you'll just end up as a pool boy.
dkjaudyeqooe 1y ago
This is nonsense. Not mentioned is that Greece has borrowed excessively and had defaulted on its loans. A bailout was organized by the EU and IMF with terms that Greece had every opportunity to reject. No one forced anything on Greece. The referendum was not binding and political theater for the government of the time. That Greece accepted the terms reflected the reality that the alternative was much worse and would have caused great suffering for Greeks.
- ingohelpinger 1y ago
  100% true.
- mc32 1y ago
  What choice did Greece have? Germany was not extending favorable terms, they were punitive, so what choice did they have but take the least awful choice? Syriza tried but Germany had the upper hand and of course didn't give an inch --though Syriza tried very hard. Varoufakis would argue the severe terms imposed by the creditors/negotiators exacerbated the fiscal issue. Yes Greece had issues but the creditors's terms exacerbated the problem, made things worse. It's kind of like borrowing from a loan shark to pay off debts --on average, you're better off not. But hey, once you take it, you either pay up, or you lose something dear to you.
  - omnimus 1y ago
    It was disqusting treatment from EU which needed to hide its own recession and blame a culprit. Every other european media outlet talked about greeks (in very racist way) as lazy nation that doesnt want to work. Not great look for EU. But i dont know about better alternative.
  - dmos62 1y ago
    Greece underreported its debt until 2009: i.e. it borrowed too much while lying about how much it's already borrowed. That's the main difference between Greece on the one hand and Italy, Portugal on the other, in my eyes. Italy and Portugal too suffered a public debt crises, but they weren't so blatant about it. I sympathize with the common Greek man, and I wish their crises had been managed with more success, but I also don't feel especially interested in bankrolling Greek policies that led to this crises.

by mc32 1y ago

isodev 1y ago

And yet, Greece recovered to become a leading economy in the region. The propaganda is strong on the airwaves these days, just like in the US, one shouldn’t react to “facts” taken out of context. It seems (from here), support for Russia is somehow magically going down as Russia’s economy is having trouble paying for its “support” abroad.

jazzyjackson 1y ago
In which region is Greece a leading economy?
- dr_kretyn 1y ago
  In a region composed of Greece, North Macedonia and Cyprus.
  - kyriakos 1y ago
    Doesn't sound right https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_... Cyprus ranks 17th and Greece 32nd
petesergeant 1y ago
> And yet, Greece recovered to become a leading economy in the region I don't think that's true ... growth is good, but that's because there's a lot of catching up to do. If I remember correctly (and maybe I don't) then real GDP is still like -20% vs 2007, debt is EU-leading at like 150% of GDP, unemployment remains high, and wages remain low.
shakow 1y ago
> to become a leading economy in the region. Leading compared to what, Romania and North Macedonia? > support for Russia is somehow magically going down I don't think support for Russia was ever notably involved in the whole clusterfuck regarding the Greek economy.
xdennis 1y ago
I'm not quite sure about that. Romania is bigger because it has a bigger population, but look even at this GDP per capita comparison with Romania. Greece: 31695 (2008), 25756 (2025), 31014 (2030, projected) Romania: 10435 (2008), 21421 (2025), 28809 (2030, projected) It won't be until 2030 that Greece will recover, and I'm pretty sure it's slow growth is because of its huge debt because of the euro.

gbil 1y ago

This is a very distant view for the reasons behind the crisis in Greece and for sure the government of 2015 was not a victim. In the context of this thread, Bulgarians as Greeks before them, enjoy the money from the EU but don’t like the responsibility that comes from it, to reform, to also contribute and that you lose the own currency perks while you gain on other fronts. Of course there is a lot more here to discuss but this is my experience being a Greek in Greece.

W3zzy 1y ago
The government was not the victim in deed. But up until today you can see the results amongst the population. You can Prune for growt or you can just cut the plant to the ground hoping it will survive.
omnimus 1y ago
Greece was sacrificed so eurozone (especialy Germany) could hide recession by bailing out banks (through bailing out Hreece). Greeks know and believe this. That makes their relationship with EU quite complicated.

spookie 1y ago

You know, there's Greece and Portugal. Mentioning these two as they got Troika following them. Portugal managed to get out of the storm, and debt is now below GDP. Greece took many bad steps trying to recover. And its debt shows that. Their governments have had a big part of the blame. Hell, at one point they didnt have enough money for citizens to withdraw from banks. And that was before Troika.

Ygg2 1y ago
> And its debt shows that. Their governments have had a big part of the blame. Hell, at one point they didnt have enough money for citizens to withdraw from banks. Sure but so do the creditors. If you keep giving mortgages to anyone with a drivers license that's on you buddy. At almost no point is there enough money for citizens to withdraw their money. Modern banks don't keep their assets as cash.
- guappa 1y ago
  > If you keep giving mortgages to anyone with a drivers license that's on you buddy. Isn't this the USA system?
  - Ygg2 1y ago
    Not just the USA system. EU and especially German banks gave plenty of credits to Greek banks, knowing that they will probably spend it on German products, even if they have not much means to repay them. Plus, the EU knows full well that if Greeks overspend they can easily be pressured into austerity. This went swimmingly for everyone involved, with Greece now in more debt than ever (debt went from 145.45% of GDP to 209.40% of GDP). And fascist parties going from virtually non-existent to mainstays. Adding low-efficiency countries like those in southeastern Europe is great for the EU's major exporter - Germany, because it adds more customers who have Euros, and because it devalues the Euro, which means more exports. Better yet, because of Euro the new joiners can't devalue their currency and get their exports high enough to restart the economy, with only viable option being more in debt and/or leaving for Germany, while obliterating the local industries. Win-win-win. For the EU exporters. So, yes, let's celebrate Bulgaria joining Hotel EU, where food is great, your bill grows exponentially, but you can't ever leave. By the end you'll just end up as a pool boy.

dkjaudyeqooe 1y ago

This is nonsense. Not mentioned is that Greece has borrowed excessively and had defaulted on its loans. A bailout was organized by the EU and IMF with terms that Greece had every opportunity to reject. No one forced anything on Greece. The referendum was not binding and political theater for the government of the time. That Greece accepted the terms reflected the reality that the alternative was much worse and would have caused great suffering for Greeks.

ingohelpinger 1y ago
100% true.
mc32 1y ago
What choice did Greece have? Germany was not extending favorable terms, they were punitive, so what choice did they have but take the least awful choice? Syriza tried but Germany had the upper hand and of course didn't give an inch --though Syriza tried very hard. Varoufakis would argue the severe terms imposed by the creditors/negotiators exacerbated the fiscal issue. Yes Greece had issues but the creditors's terms exacerbated the problem, made things worse. It's kind of like borrowing from a loan shark to pay off debts --on average, you're better off not. But hey, once you take it, you either pay up, or you lose something dear to you.
- omnimus 1y ago
  It was disqusting treatment from EU which needed to hide its own recession and blame a culprit. Every other european media outlet talked about greeks (in very racist way) as lazy nation that doesnt want to work. Not great look for EU. But i dont know about better alternative.
- dmos62 1y ago
  Greece underreported its debt until 2009: i.e. it borrowed too much while lying about how much it's already borrowed. That's the main difference between Greece on the one hand and Italy, Portugal on the other, in my eyes. Italy and Portugal too suffered a public debt crises, but they weren't so blatant about it. I sympathize with the common Greek man, and I wish their crises had been managed with more success, but I also don't feel especially interested in bankrolling Greek policies that led to this crises.