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They clearly were being digitized, but I think its a more philosophical discussion that we're only banging our heads against for the first time to say whether o

They clearly were being digitized, but I think its a more philosophical discussion that we're only banging our heads against for the first time to say whether or not it is fair use. Simply, if the models can think then it is no different than a person reading many books and building something new from their learnings. Digitization is just memory. If the models cannot think then it is meaningless digital regurgitation and plagiarism, not to mention breach of copyright. The quotes "consistent with copyright's purpose in enabling creativity and fostering scientific progress." and "Like any reader aspiring to be a writer" say, from what I can tell, that the judge has legally ruled the model can think as a human does, and therefore has the legal protections afforded to "creatives."

palmotea 1y ago
> Simply, if the models can think then it is no different than a person reading many books and building something new from their learnings. No, that's fallacious. Using anthropomorphic words to describe a machine does not give it the same kinds of rights and affordances we give real people.
- jimbob21 1y ago
  Actually, it does, at least for this case. The judge just said so.
  - NoOn3 1y ago
    People have rights, machines don't. Otherwise, maybe give machines the right to vote, for example?...
    - kube-system 1y ago
      This case is more like: If a human uses a voting machine, they still have a right to vote. Machines don't have rights. The human using the machine does.
    - protocolture 1y ago
      If I can use my brain to learn, I as a human can use my computer to learn. Its like, taking notes, or google image search caching thumbnails. Honestly we dont even need the learning metaphor to see this is obviously not an infringement.
      - palmotea 1y ago
        > If I can use my brain to learn, I as a human can use my computer to learn. No, you can't. The only thing you can learn with is your own mind (e.g. loading notes into your laptop is not you learning).
        protocolture 1y ago
        Right but there's more potential reproducibility in the notes than the AI model. Like other than some philosophical aversion to the word "Learn" its clearly not infringing. >loading notes into your laptop is not you learning I dont want to get too distracted by this, but tptb really hate me (questioning american notions of excellence draws the eye of sauron) and have limited my posting. Note taking is actually crucial to my actually learning things. I am largely a kinaesthetic learner, but when it comes to pure data retention, if I am not writing it out, it goes straight through. Note taking is crucial to my learning new things and retaining data, and I know I am not the only one. Heck its a common (or was common) for writers to completely rewrite, by hand the books of "great" authors to try and learn their "voice".
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- pavon 1y ago
  The judge did use some language that analogized the training with human learning. I don't read it as basing the legal judgement on anthropomorphizing the LLM though, but rather discussing whether it would be legal for a human to do the same thing, then it is legal for a human to use a computer to do so. First, Authors argue that using works to train Claude’s underlying LLMs was like using works to train any person to read and write, so Authors should be able to exclude Anthropic from this use (Opp. 16). But Authors cannot rightly exclude anyone from using their works for training or learning as such. Everyone reads texts, too, then writes new texts. They may need to pay for getting their hands on a text in the first instance. But to make anyone pay specifically for the use of a book each time they read it, each time they recall it from memory, each time they later draw upon it when writing new things in new ways would be unthinkable. For centuries, we have read and re-read books. We have admired, memorized, and internalized their sweeping themes, their substantive points, and their stylistic solutions to recurring writing problems. ... In short, the purpose and character of using copyrighted works to train LLMs to generate new text was quintessentially transformative. Like any reader aspiring to be a writer, Anthropic’s LLMs trained upon works not to race ahead and replicate or supplant them — but to turn a hard corner and create something different. If this training process reasonably required making copies within the LLM or otherwise, those copies were engaged in a transformative use. [1] https://authorsguild.org/app/uploads/2025/06/gov.uscourts.cand_.434709.231.0_3.pdf https://authorsguild.org/app/uploads/2025/06/gov.uscourts.ca...
  - trinsic2 1y ago
    Yeah I see the point, but is still thing there is a differnce between human learning and machine learning creatively, see my post above connected to the parent.
trinsic2 1y ago
In my mind, there is a difference between a person using there own creative thinking to create a derivative work from learning about a subject and making money off of it versus a corporation with a language model that is designed to absorb the works of the entire planet and redisrubtes that information in away that puts them in a centralized position to become an authority on information. With a person, there is a certain responsibility one has to create meaning from that work so that others can experience it. For-profit companies are like machines that have no interest in the creative expression part of this process hence there is a concern that they do not have the best interests of the public at heart.

palmotea 1y ago

> Simply, if the models can think then it is no different than a person reading many books and building something new from their learnings. No, that's fallacious. Using anthropomorphic words to describe a machine does not give it the same kinds of rights and affordances we give real people.

jimbob21 1y ago
Actually, it does, at least for this case. The judge just said so.
- NoOn3 1y ago
  People have rights, machines don't. Otherwise, maybe give machines the right to vote, for example?...
  - kube-system 1y ago
    This case is more like: If a human uses a voting machine, they still have a right to vote. Machines don't have rights. The human using the machine does.
  - protocolture 1y ago
    If I can use my brain to learn, I as a human can use my computer to learn. Its like, taking notes, or google image search caching thumbnails. Honestly we dont even need the learning metaphor to see this is obviously not an infringement.
    - palmotea 1y ago
      > If I can use my brain to learn, I as a human can use my computer to learn. No, you can't. The only thing you can learn with is your own mind (e.g. loading notes into your laptop is not you learning).
      - protocolture 1y ago
        Right but there's more potential reproducibility in the notes than the AI model. Like other than some philosophical aversion to the word "Learn" its clearly not infringing. >loading notes into your laptop is not you learning I dont want to get too distracted by this, but tptb really hate me (questioning american notions of excellence draws the eye of sauron) and have limited my posting. Note taking is actually crucial to my actually learning things. I am largely a kinaesthetic learner, but when it comes to pure data retention, if I am not writing it out, it goes straight through. Note taking is crucial to my learning new things and retaining data, and I know I am not the only one. Heck its a common (or was common) for writers to completely rewrite, by hand the books of "great" authors to try and learn their "voice".
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
pavon 1y ago
The judge did use some language that analogized the training with human learning. I don't read it as basing the legal judgement on anthropomorphizing the LLM though, but rather discussing whether it would be legal for a human to do the same thing, then it is legal for a human to use a computer to do so. First, Authors argue that using works to train Claude’s underlying LLMs was like using works to train any person to read and write, so Authors should be able to exclude Anthropic from this use (Opp. 16). But Authors cannot rightly exclude anyone from using their works for training or learning as such. Everyone reads texts, too, then writes new texts. They may need to pay for getting their hands on a text in the first instance. But to make anyone pay specifically for the use of a book each time they read it, each time they recall it from memory, each time they later draw upon it when writing new things in new ways would be unthinkable. For centuries, we have read and re-read books. We have admired, memorized, and internalized their sweeping themes, their substantive points, and their stylistic solutions to recurring writing problems. ... In short, the purpose and character of using copyrighted works to train LLMs to generate new text was quintessentially transformative. Like any reader aspiring to be a writer, Anthropic’s LLMs trained upon works not to race ahead and replicate or supplant them — but to turn a hard corner and create something different. If this training process reasonably required making copies within the LLM or otherwise, those copies were engaged in a transformative use. [1] https://authorsguild.org/app/uploads/2025/06/gov.uscourts.cand_.434709.231.0_3.pdf https://authorsguild.org/app/uploads/2025/06/gov.uscourts.ca...
- trinsic2 1y ago
  Yeah I see the point, but is still thing there is a differnce between human learning and machine learning creatively, see my post above connected to the parent.

trinsic2 1y ago

In my mind, there is a difference between a person using there own creative thinking to create a derivative work from learning about a subject and making money off of it versus a corporation with a language model that is designed to absorb the works of the entire planet and redisrubtes that information in away that puts them in a centralized position to become an authority on information. With a person, there is a certain responsibility one has to create meaning from that work so that others can experience it. For-profit companies are like machines that have no interest in the creative expression part of this process hence there is a concern that they do not have the best interests of the public at heart.