12 ms·

The lovable aphorisms we had for people with character quirks were largely from our original support systems. What no one is talking about is the reason therapy

The lovable aphorisms we had for people with character quirks were largely from our original support systems. What no one is talking about is the reason therapy-talk has become so pervasive is because all those support systems: family, friends, and local communities (religious or otherwise), have all degraded so severely for most that therapy is the only option for reaching out and getting help.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
deanCommie 1y ago
except they weren't really "support systems" i mean they were, if you got lucky. If you were neurotypical; if you bought in to the local religious sect's particular flavour and embraced it wholeheartedly; if you followed the other local cults of sports fandoms; if you were lucky enough to either have family without their own trauma that didn't take it out on you OR decided to repress it in exactly the same way that they did and just simply passed it forward or didn't talk about it. i don't know what the ratios are but a LOT of people fell through the cracks. it's just that the birth rate was high enough to continue the population growth, and there were socially acceptable ways to ignore the inconvenient problems (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy) it's why there's now suddenly an influx of ADHD and Autism diagnosis - because in the past anyone outside of the norm who wasn't lucky to do one of the things above was simply ignored, beaten, or died. now the stigma is gone and we're finding EXPLICIT paths to treatment, tolerance, and embracement of mental health, neuroatypical brains, spectrums, etc. Is there overpathologizing? Maybe? Hard to know! The stigmas still aren't gone. Go read the comments on any video providing tips on how to parent children on the spectrum and see neurotypicals freaking out about how soft the current generation is. the western world seems to have peaked in tolerance in the 2010s, and is now backsliding into authoritarianism and fascism. that's trying to recreate a lot of those original support systems (by destroying the new ones). It's a bold plan, let's see how it happens.
- EMIRELADERO 1y ago
  I agree with everything you said except for the last paragraph. The people who, according to your theory, want to reverse the tolerance trend and slide towards fascism/authoritarianism didn't pop out today. They existed and lived in society in the 2010s too. So, from a logical standpoint, what changed?
  - chairmansteve 1y ago
    > what changed? The algorithms are promoting those views?
  - BriggyDwiggs42 1y ago
    The parent comment didn’t even pose a theory as to why. People can change beliefs over time. Weimar Germany had less Nazis in it than Nazi Germany, which would be equally confusing under your framing.
  - intended 1y ago
    Nothing changed - mostly it seems the American condition is a side effect of dedicated partisanship and asymmetric political behavior since the 1970s. The media apparatus in America has split into a center and left, and then a right wing which has different norms and produces its own products. That in turn has created a durable political coalition that self referentially calls itself when it needs to support its descriptions on reality. It’s significantly more effective at producing narratives, and moving ideas from the fringes to the main stream news channels. Since it has little traffic with the left and center media channels, it avoids counter claims and norms on journalistic standards. So you can now primary Bipartisan politicians, and then the ideas that gain media attention are the ones that reinforces party talking points. Counter views simply do not get air time. What we are seeing today, is the progression of those forces, as the narratives are never challenged.
  - thrance 1y ago
    Material conditions degrading further with no end in sight, a massive influx of money towards right-wing populists appealing to a frustrated middle class, etc. Same story as always. How can a country slide into authoritarianism? It seems impossible until it happens, and by then we can hardly tell we're there.
Aurornis 1y ago
I don’t see these as opposing ends of a spectrum. I think they’re largely independent variables. Anecdotally, the people I know who have become most immersed in therapy speak are also the most socially connected. The therapy speak and associated language have become tools for establishing themselves within their social support system, communicating cries for help, and even trying to use therapy terms to shield themselves from accountability for their actions by transforming it into a therapy session.
Paracompact 1y ago
I agree, though possibly for different reasons. Those support systems may or may not be weaker than they were in generations past, but they are certainly more likely to say "I can't help you, go get professional help" than in the past. In some ways this is a good thing. It is good if bipolar people get the medication they need faster, and can start living their best lives. But as someone who almost died to depression, the "help" out there is criminal. It is not a disease we have a cure for, in fact it's not clear to me it's even a disease in most sufferers, but a healthy and rational response to societal decay. I do not believe some disorders will ever be satisfactorily explained by individual-centric medicine, in the same way history will never be satisfactorily explained by great man theory.
- KolibriFly 1y ago
  Yeah, calling depression a "disorder" sometimes misses the point entirely when despair is a logical response to how things are
  - nradov 1y ago
    Cheer up! For the average HN user, things are better now than they ever have been in human history.
    - bevesce- 1y ago
      Why is that a reason to cheer up? When I think about it, I’m miserable most of the time—and knowing that life was even worse for most people throughout history only makes me feel sadder.
      - scotty79 1y ago
        I think he was being sarcastic. But on the internet you can't really tell. Adopt absurdism. Nothing really matters and it's grotesquely hilarious at the same time. That might cheer you up. Occasionally.
        1y ago
theusus 1y ago
> is because all those support systems: family, friends, and local communities (religious or otherwise), have all degraded so severely. I disagree! There was never a good support system at all. We used to just man up and live with it. Now that stress is reaching it's new heights. We can't cope with it.
- jazzyjackson 1y ago
  I'm very curious as to how you come to the conclusion that 'stress' has increased. I don't suppose it's that the world is more stressful, WWII, cold war, a thousand famines throughout history, what makes us so stressed that we can't cope in some way that we used to be able to cope?
  - theusus 1y ago
    We just suffered at that time and prayed. Today we suffer and work together.
    - js8 1y ago
      Also people used to smoke and drink a lot of alcohol. So it's possible that stress has objectively decreased, yet subjectively increased, as we are more aware of it. But yeah it's an interesting question, and with the Internet as well. The 1980s world I grew up in as a kid (in Czechia) was more dangerous than the Internet-focused world of today; yet young people seem to be more stressed by the latter.
      - nradov 1y ago
        That depends on the time frame. Tobacco only spread beyond the Americas in the 16th century. And really poor people have never been able to afford much tobacco or alcohol; those are luxury products.
  - ratmeadow 1y ago
    I have wondered - but have no evidence either way - if the stress we encounter nowadays differs to stress of the past. At some point very long ago most of us were stressing about things like food, water, surviving the night. Now most of us are stressing about things like work pressure, debt, global disasters. I wonder if the nature of the stressors have changed from immediate and acute to increasingly abstract and chronic? And potentially, if the quality of life profile is different in the two cases due to different coping mechanisms? Very anecdotal which makes me think this: immediate physical stressors like exercise are uncomfortable but I get through them fine. Chronic stressors like climate change are totally ruining my quality of life.
dpkirchner 1y ago
It was also possible to buy afford a house and a small family on a job that doesn't require much training or special skills. It's easier to deal with (often meaning "ignore") undiagnosed mental issues with your own roof over your head.
ryuker16 1y ago
Your leaving out that people with mental and even physical issues often were outcasts for revealing them to their family, friends, and community in the past. Some of that supoort wasnt present.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

deanCommie 1y ago

except they weren't really "support systems" i mean they were, if you got lucky. If you were neurotypical; if you bought in to the local religious sect's particular flavour and embraced it wholeheartedly; if you followed the other local cults of sports fandoms; if you were lucky enough to either have family without their own trauma that didn't take it out on you OR decided to repress it in exactly the same way that they did and just simply passed it forward or didn't talk about it. i don't know what the ratios are but a LOT of people fell through the cracks. it's just that the birth rate was high enough to continue the population growth, and there were socially acceptable ways to ignore the inconvenient problems (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy) it's why there's now suddenly an influx of ADHD and Autism diagnosis - because in the past anyone outside of the norm who wasn't lucky to do one of the things above was simply ignored, beaten, or died. now the stigma is gone and we're finding EXPLICIT paths to treatment, tolerance, and embracement of mental health, neuroatypical brains, spectrums, etc. Is there overpathologizing? Maybe? Hard to know! The stigmas still aren't gone. Go read the comments on any video providing tips on how to parent children on the spectrum and see neurotypicals freaking out about how soft the current generation is. the western world seems to have peaked in tolerance in the 2010s, and is now backsliding into authoritarianism and fascism. that's trying to recreate a lot of those original support systems (by destroying the new ones). It's a bold plan, let's see how it happens.

EMIRELADERO 1y ago
I agree with everything you said except for the last paragraph. The people who, according to your theory, want to reverse the tolerance trend and slide towards fascism/authoritarianism didn't pop out today. They existed and lived in society in the 2010s too. So, from a logical standpoint, what changed?
- chairmansteve 1y ago
  > what changed? The algorithms are promoting those views?
- BriggyDwiggs42 1y ago
  The parent comment didn’t even pose a theory as to why. People can change beliefs over time. Weimar Germany had less Nazis in it than Nazi Germany, which would be equally confusing under your framing.
- intended 1y ago
  Nothing changed - mostly it seems the American condition is a side effect of dedicated partisanship and asymmetric political behavior since the 1970s. The media apparatus in America has split into a center and left, and then a right wing which has different norms and produces its own products. That in turn has created a durable political coalition that self referentially calls itself when it needs to support its descriptions on reality. It’s significantly more effective at producing narratives, and moving ideas from the fringes to the main stream news channels. Since it has little traffic with the left and center media channels, it avoids counter claims and norms on journalistic standards. So you can now primary Bipartisan politicians, and then the ideas that gain media attention are the ones that reinforces party talking points. Counter views simply do not get air time. What we are seeing today, is the progression of those forces, as the narratives are never challenged.
- thrance 1y ago
  Material conditions degrading further with no end in sight, a massive influx of money towards right-wing populists appealing to a frustrated middle class, etc. Same story as always. How can a country slide into authoritarianism? It seems impossible until it happens, and by then we can hardly tell we're there.

Aurornis 1y ago

I don’t see these as opposing ends of a spectrum. I think they’re largely independent variables. Anecdotally, the people I know who have become most immersed in therapy speak are also the most socially connected. The therapy speak and associated language have become tools for establishing themselves within their social support system, communicating cries for help, and even trying to use therapy terms to shield themselves from accountability for their actions by transforming it into a therapy session.

Paracompact 1y ago

I agree, though possibly for different reasons. Those support systems may or may not be weaker than they were in generations past, but they are certainly more likely to say "I can't help you, go get professional help" than in the past. In some ways this is a good thing. It is good if bipolar people get the medication they need faster, and can start living their best lives. But as someone who almost died to depression, the "help" out there is criminal. It is not a disease we have a cure for, in fact it's not clear to me it's even a disease in most sufferers, but a healthy and rational response to societal decay. I do not believe some disorders will ever be satisfactorily explained by individual-centric medicine, in the same way history will never be satisfactorily explained by great man theory.

KolibriFly 1y ago
Yeah, calling depression a "disorder" sometimes misses the point entirely when despair is a logical response to how things are
- nradov 1y ago
  Cheer up! For the average HN user, things are better now than they ever have been in human history.
  - bevesce- 1y ago
    Why is that a reason to cheer up? When I think about it, I’m miserable most of the time—and knowing that life was even worse for most people throughout history only makes me feel sadder.
    - scotty79 1y ago
      I think he was being sarcastic. But on the internet you can't really tell. Adopt absurdism. Nothing really matters and it's grotesquely hilarious at the same time. That might cheer you up. Occasionally.
      - 1y ago

theusus 1y ago

> is because all those support systems: family, friends, and local communities (religious or otherwise), have all degraded so severely. I disagree! There was never a good support system at all. We used to just man up and live with it. Now that stress is reaching it's new heights. We can't cope with it.

jazzyjackson 1y ago
I'm very curious as to how you come to the conclusion that 'stress' has increased. I don't suppose it's that the world is more stressful, WWII, cold war, a thousand famines throughout history, what makes us so stressed that we can't cope in some way that we used to be able to cope?
- theusus 1y ago
  We just suffered at that time and prayed. Today we suffer and work together.
  - js8 1y ago
    Also people used to smoke and drink a lot of alcohol. So it's possible that stress has objectively decreased, yet subjectively increased, as we are more aware of it. But yeah it's an interesting question, and with the Internet as well. The 1980s world I grew up in as a kid (in Czechia) was more dangerous than the Internet-focused world of today; yet young people seem to be more stressed by the latter.
    - nradov 1y ago
      That depends on the time frame. Tobacco only spread beyond the Americas in the 16th century. And really poor people have never been able to afford much tobacco or alcohol; those are luxury products.
- ratmeadow 1y ago
  I have wondered - but have no evidence either way - if the stress we encounter nowadays differs to stress of the past. At some point very long ago most of us were stressing about things like food, water, surviving the night. Now most of us are stressing about things like work pressure, debt, global disasters. I wonder if the nature of the stressors have changed from immediate and acute to increasingly abstract and chronic? And potentially, if the quality of life profile is different in the two cases due to different coping mechanisms? Very anecdotal which makes me think this: immediate physical stressors like exercise are uncomfortable but I get through them fine. Chronic stressors like climate change are totally ruining my quality of life.

dpkirchner 1y ago

It was also possible to buy afford a house and a small family on a job that doesn't require much training or special skills. It's easier to deal with (often meaning "ignore") undiagnosed mental issues with your own roof over your head.

ryuker16 1y ago

Your leaving out that people with mental and even physical issues often were outcasts for revealing them to their family, friends, and community in the past. Some of that supoort wasnt present.