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> When human bodies are scarce, as they often are in rural Australia, machines are created to fill the void. I think they meant where labour costs are more tha

> When human bodies are scarce, as they often are in rural Australia, machines are created to fill the void. I think they meant where labour costs are more than their ability to pay

oblio 1y ago
Agriculture is bottom of the barrel business because no political power worth its weight allows price gouging. Food has to be kept as cheap as possible because otherwise the economy doesn't work. The workaround for this is subsidies, but those don't scale. You can't agriculture your way into Google Ads, the money printing machine.
- ericyd 1y ago
  Could you elaborate on "subsidies don't scale"? In the US, farm subsidies are a huge chunk of our budget and, to the best of my understanding, help keep food prices low. I'm not informed enough to know if it's an inefficient solution though.
  - Onavo 1y ago
    The subsidies are combined with cheap indentured semi legal labor from south of the border. Remove either one and the whole system falls apart.
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      Indentured?
      - tocs3 1y ago
        This reply is a little off the cuff but the "Indentured" is referring to the fact that the workers cannot just pick up and leave without consequences. They do not have transportation so would have to just walk home and are not holding the visas so hey could face consequences involving law enforcement.
  - owie829 1y ago
    that is incorrect. 2023 US Payments to agriculture [1] were $10.972 billion. That is 0.04% of GDP or ~0.697% of the federal budget[2] for 2023. It spiked slightly in 2020, but has been a small portion of the budget for a long time. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/L312041A027NBEA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/L312041A027NBEA [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M318191Q027NBEA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M318191Q027NBEA [3] https://imgur.com/a/dwgS0m6 https://imgur.com/a/dwgS0m6
    - ericyd 1y ago
      I guess it's a matter of perspective, I know 0.7% isn't the biggest item in the budget but it's a fairly large line item to my mind. Either way I still wonder what the "does not scale" comment meant. Edit: re-reading my comment, I regret my word choice, "a huge chunk" is obviously incorrect.
      - vkou 1y ago
        First of all, 11 billion is 0.17% of the federal budget. (Which is ~6 trillion). You were looking at a quarterly budget, not the annual one. Secondly, that 0.17% that is spent on food security has dramatically better ROI than the 1.7% of it that is spent on, to pick a random line item... maintaining 5 (of 11) carrier strike groups[1]. --- [1] For contrast, the entire rest of the world put together has exactly 2 carrier strike groups. Somehow, I'd have to prioritize people getting three meals a day over nearly anything else the government could be doing.
- EA-3167 1y ago
  Would I be correct in assuming that your name comes from 'The Point'? What a classic! I also appreciate your point about the reality of agriculture, I think too often people miss just how narrow the margins there are and why farm life has always been so financially unstable. It used to be the weather that could make or break you, and it still is, but not world commodity markets, the price of fuel and fertilizer, and trends in a number of areas can all do it as well. Add in the top-down pressure to keep prices low and bottom-up pressure to target migrants and... what a rough mix.
- alexashka 1y ago
  You can't anything your way to miracle profits without destroying society in the process. I suppose destroying society for profit is top of the barrel for people like you.
  - oblio 1y ago
    > people like you I'm a regular Joe on the internet, with a regular job. And regarding agriculture and your comment, that's how people with actual power think. Think of almost all major advances we've had, especially in terms of reducing costs. The vast majority of cost savings (and therefore improving quality of life for the average person) can be summarized as: * put plastic (and fossil fuel derived materials) in EVERYTHING: if you don't believe this me, go to Amazon (or any supermarket, really) and pick a random product category and see how much the non-plastic version costs, frequently it's much, much more expensive (kudos to stainless steel and aluminum products frequently still holding the flag; but coming with other downsides, obviously) * (more relevant to our discussion): industrialize human suffering and/or general environment degradation (push production to countries where labor and environmental/sustainability laws are lax and abuses are rampant): if you don't believe me, go to Amazon (or any supermarket, really) and pick a random product category and try to research their supply chain to see if it's produced ethically and sustainably Oh, for bonus points, a huge percentage of the world economy works on BOTH at the same time.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > You can't anything your way to miracle profits without destroying society in the process Wat. You really don’t see any technology that created win-wins?
    - salawat 1y ago
      No such thing as a win-win. Just a lose we haven't come up with a name or explanation for yet.
      - ben_w 1y ago
        "Destroying society" was itself a win-win in a lot of cases, given how many pre-industrial societies in Europe were literally feudalism before and who replaced it with democracy and liberty. I think the total elimination of smallpox was pretty one-sided, too; this remains the case even despite people who look at vaccines skeptically, because such skepticism isn't the fault of vaccines.
ViscountPenguin 1y ago
Rural Australia also just has a desirability problem. Rural towns regularly offer significantly above market rate for GPs and teachers, but rarely ever fill the posts.
- kjkjadksj 1y ago
  Sounds like they aren't actually market rate if the labor market is rejecting the prices at those levels.
  - Teever 1y ago
    Or there are some locations where markets just breakdown because the environmental factors overwhelm whatever salaries you offer.
    - collinmcnulty 1y ago
      Offshore oil rigs beg to differ. For almost any set of circumstances, there’s a salary that will entice people to fill the role. They just don’t want to shell out the mid six figure salary that would be required. It’s only a “breakdown” because we collectively feel entitled to have people fill the role but don’t want to actually pay what it costs.
      - Teever 1y ago
        Salary is only part of the equation. Offshore oil rigs deal in billions of dollars worth of hydrocarbons per day. The revenues make it feasible to offer high salaries and still generate massive returns. Many rural locations just aren't economically productive to justify the kinds of salaries necessary to draw people to them.
        nucleardog 1y ago
        If we take for granted that "farm requires farmers, farmers require doctor", then the doctor should charge whatever market rate is for someone to work there, and the farmers should be paying that, drawing that from salary from the farm business, and that should be priced into the cost of the farm business's output? Why can't the farms increase prices to support a basic quality-of-life for those living there? I don't disagree there's some breakdown of the market here, but I'm not sure that saying "well there's not enough money coming in to the area" isn't stopping a step short.
PhasmaFelis 1y ago
Human bodies are scarce because you can't pay most people to live there. They're not mutually exclusive.
- beAbU 1y ago
  Yes but the point of the poster is the framing of the conversation. There is no labour shortage, there is a salary shortage. And we, as the collective global community of serfs and plebes must realize this, and call it for what it is. There is currently a massive teacher shortage in Ireland, with something like >1800 unfilled posts and we're approaching the new school term. There is no teacher shortage, there is however an abundance of catholic-church-controlled schools with overly restrictive hiring policy, with many newly qualified teachers not really interested in becoming involved in religious things. Teachers are paid well here, but clearly not well enough for many of them to be willing to subject themselves to draconic requirements such as needing to provide catholic teachings to kids taking fucking math.
Animats 1y ago
Automation is seen in the more advanced countries, ones which lack an oppressed underclass like the US. There's much more automation on farms. Robotic milking is widely used in Australia, but less popular in the US. [1] New Zealand has the best automated slaughterhouse technology.[2] Those jobs are mostly done by illegal immigrants in the US, and the companies hiring them are screaming about stricter ICE enforcement.[3][4] [1] https://dairy-cattle.extension.org/dairy-robotic-milking-systems-what-are-the-economics/ https://dairy-cattle.extension.org/dairy-robotic-milking-sys... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdq1uBCI2Kw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdq1uBCI2Kw [3] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2025/06/23/dairy-industry-concerned-over-trump-administrations-mixed-messages-on-deporting-illegal-immigrants/84288555007/?gnt-cfr=1&gca-cat=p https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2025/06/23/dairy-industr... [4] https://tucson.com/news/national/article_fe9b9724-1526-557b-8785-2bdea34c762f.html https://tucson.com/news/national/article_fe9b9724-1526-557b-...
- MisterTea 1y ago
  > and the companies hiring them are screaming about stricter ICE enforcement.[3][4] Your statement matches nothing listed in those linked articles. [3] Talks about how the dairy industry is concerned as it relies on immigrant labor. [4] only quotes an "official of the plant" who says they are against illegal immigration, a personal opinion. [4] also amusingly paints the immigrants as tech savvy identity thieves which is laughable. Likely, it is whatever shady entity the employer uses to hire illegals allowing them to deny involvement.
  - Animats 1y ago
    More references. US dairy operators needing immigrant labor. (Associated Press) [1] (Dairy Herd Management) [2] Meatpacking plant raids, effects. (Des Moines Register) [3] More available via Google. This is a major issue and there's lots of info available. [1] https://apnews.com/article/trump-immigration-farmworkers-vermont-aea999892ad6c752a360990e1c071527 https://apnews.com/article/trump-immigration-farmworkers-ver... [2] https://www.dairyherd.com/news/business/impact-immigration-reform-u-s-dairy-farms https://www.dairyherd.com/news/business/impact-immigration-r... [3] https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2025/06/11/ice-raid-omaha-glenn-valley-foods-meat-packing-plant/84151152007/ https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2025/06/11/ice-...
lpolovets 1y ago
This is secondhand and not firsthand knowledge, but one thing I've heard from a number of agtech founders (and sometimes farmers when we do diligence calls with them) is that hiring employees is very hard because of seasonality. E.g. you might need 100 workers most of the year, but 400 for a few weeks when it's picking season. And of course if you are in an area known for a single crop, all of the other local farms have the same seasonal labor need. For these types of businesses, paying less for labor is a secondary goal and just having enough labor (human or machine) is the primary goal.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- Scoundreller 1y ago
  The US sugar beet harvest is like that, but seems to have structured itself around that. Lots of websites recruiting people with RVs to come by and work the 2-3 week season. Others stay in motels or live close enough to drive. https://www.google.com/search?q=beet+harvest+working https://www.google.com/search?q=beet+harvest+working https://www.theunbeetableexperience.com/sugar-beet-harvest-faq/ https://www.theunbeetableexperience.com/sugar-beet-harvest-f... Some places have/had the schools close for the harvest season (and in others, for the start of hunting season).

> When human bodies are scarce, as they often are in rural Australia, machines are created to fill the void. I think they meant where labour costs are more than their ability to pay

oblio 1y ago

Agriculture is bottom of the barrel business because no political power worth its weight allows price gouging. Food has to be kept as cheap as possible because otherwise the economy doesn't work. The workaround for this is subsidies, but those don't scale. You can't agriculture your way into Google Ads, the money printing machine.

ericyd 1y ago
Could you elaborate on "subsidies don't scale"? In the US, farm subsidies are a huge chunk of our budget and, to the best of my understanding, help keep food prices low. I'm not informed enough to know if it's an inefficient solution though.
- Onavo 1y ago
  The subsidies are combined with cheap indentured semi legal labor from south of the border. Remove either one and the whole system falls apart.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    Indentured?
    - tocs3 1y ago
      This reply is a little off the cuff but the "Indentured" is referring to the fact that the workers cannot just pick up and leave without consequences. They do not have transportation so would have to just walk home and are not holding the visas so hey could face consequences involving law enforcement.
- owie829 1y ago
  that is incorrect. 2023 US Payments to agriculture [1] were $10.972 billion. That is 0.04% of GDP or ~0.697% of the federal budget[2] for 2023. It spiked slightly in 2020, but has been a small portion of the budget for a long time. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/L312041A027NBEA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/L312041A027NBEA [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M318191Q027NBEA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M318191Q027NBEA [3] https://imgur.com/a/dwgS0m6 https://imgur.com/a/dwgS0m6
  - ericyd 1y ago
    I guess it's a matter of perspective, I know 0.7% isn't the biggest item in the budget but it's a fairly large line item to my mind. Either way I still wonder what the "does not scale" comment meant. Edit: re-reading my comment, I regret my word choice, "a huge chunk" is obviously incorrect.
    - vkou 1y ago
      First of all, 11 billion is 0.17% of the federal budget. (Which is ~6 trillion). You were looking at a quarterly budget, not the annual one. Secondly, that 0.17% that is spent on food security has dramatically better ROI than the 1.7% of it that is spent on, to pick a random line item... maintaining 5 (of 11) carrier strike groups[1]. --- [1] For contrast, the entire rest of the world put together has exactly 2 carrier strike groups. Somehow, I'd have to prioritize people getting three meals a day over nearly anything else the government could be doing.
EA-3167 1y ago
Would I be correct in assuming that your name comes from 'The Point'? What a classic! I also appreciate your point about the reality of agriculture, I think too often people miss just how narrow the margins there are and why farm life has always been so financially unstable. It used to be the weather that could make or break you, and it still is, but not world commodity markets, the price of fuel and fertilizer, and trends in a number of areas can all do it as well. Add in the top-down pressure to keep prices low and bottom-up pressure to target migrants and... what a rough mix.
alexashka 1y ago
You can't anything your way to miracle profits without destroying society in the process. I suppose destroying society for profit is top of the barrel for people like you.
- oblio 1y ago
  > people like you I'm a regular Joe on the internet, with a regular job. And regarding agriculture and your comment, that's how people with actual power think. Think of almost all major advances we've had, especially in terms of reducing costs. The vast majority of cost savings (and therefore improving quality of life for the average person) can be summarized as: * put plastic (and fossil fuel derived materials) in EVERYTHING: if you don't believe this me, go to Amazon (or any supermarket, really) and pick a random product category and see how much the non-plastic version costs, frequently it's much, much more expensive (kudos to stainless steel and aluminum products frequently still holding the flag; but coming with other downsides, obviously) * (more relevant to our discussion): industrialize human suffering and/or general environment degradation (push production to countries where labor and environmental/sustainability laws are lax and abuses are rampant): if you don't believe me, go to Amazon (or any supermarket, really) and pick a random product category and try to research their supply chain to see if it's produced ethically and sustainably Oh, for bonus points, a huge percentage of the world economy works on BOTH at the same time.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > You can't anything your way to miracle profits without destroying society in the process Wat. You really don’t see any technology that created win-wins?
  - salawat 1y ago
    No such thing as a win-win. Just a lose we haven't come up with a name or explanation for yet.
    - ben_w 1y ago
      "Destroying society" was itself a win-win in a lot of cases, given how many pre-industrial societies in Europe were literally feudalism before and who replaced it with democracy and liberty. I think the total elimination of smallpox was pretty one-sided, too; this remains the case even despite people who look at vaccines skeptically, because such skepticism isn't the fault of vaccines.

ViscountPenguin 1y ago

Rural Australia also just has a desirability problem. Rural towns regularly offer significantly above market rate for GPs and teachers, but rarely ever fill the posts.

kjkjadksj 1y ago
Sounds like they aren't actually market rate if the labor market is rejecting the prices at those levels.
- Teever 1y ago
  Or there are some locations where markets just breakdown because the environmental factors overwhelm whatever salaries you offer.
  - collinmcnulty 1y ago
    Offshore oil rigs beg to differ. For almost any set of circumstances, there’s a salary that will entice people to fill the role. They just don’t want to shell out the mid six figure salary that would be required. It’s only a “breakdown” because we collectively feel entitled to have people fill the role but don’t want to actually pay what it costs.
    - Teever 1y ago
      Salary is only part of the equation. Offshore oil rigs deal in billions of dollars worth of hydrocarbons per day. The revenues make it feasible to offer high salaries and still generate massive returns. Many rural locations just aren't economically productive to justify the kinds of salaries necessary to draw people to them.
      - nucleardog 1y ago
        If we take for granted that "farm requires farmers, farmers require doctor", then the doctor should charge whatever market rate is for someone to work there, and the farmers should be paying that, drawing that from salary from the farm business, and that should be priced into the cost of the farm business's output? Why can't the farms increase prices to support a basic quality-of-life for those living there? I don't disagree there's some breakdown of the market here, but I'm not sure that saying "well there's not enough money coming in to the area" isn't stopping a step short.

PhasmaFelis 1y ago

Human bodies are scarce because you can't pay most people to live there. They're not mutually exclusive.

beAbU 1y ago
Yes but the point of the poster is the framing of the conversation. There is no labour shortage, there is a salary shortage. And we, as the collective global community of serfs and plebes must realize this, and call it for what it is. There is currently a massive teacher shortage in Ireland, with something like >1800 unfilled posts and we're approaching the new school term. There is no teacher shortage, there is however an abundance of catholic-church-controlled schools with overly restrictive hiring policy, with many newly qualified teachers not really interested in becoming involved in religious things. Teachers are paid well here, but clearly not well enough for many of them to be willing to subject themselves to draconic requirements such as needing to provide catholic teachings to kids taking fucking math.

Animats 1y ago

Automation is seen in the more advanced countries, ones which lack an oppressed underclass like the US. There's much more automation on farms. Robotic milking is widely used in Australia, but less popular in the US. [1] New Zealand has the best automated slaughterhouse technology.[2] Those jobs are mostly done by illegal immigrants in the US, and the companies hiring them are screaming about stricter ICE enforcement.[3][4] [1] https://dairy-cattle.extension.org/dairy-robotic-milking-systems-what-are-the-economics/ https://dairy-cattle.extension.org/dairy-robotic-milking-sys... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdq1uBCI2Kw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdq1uBCI2Kw [3] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2025/06/23/dairy-industry-concerned-over-trump-administrations-mixed-messages-on-deporting-illegal-immigrants/84288555007/?gnt-cfr=1&gca-cat=p https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2025/06/23/dairy-industr... [4] https://tucson.com/news/national/article_fe9b9724-1526-557b-8785-2bdea34c762f.html https://tucson.com/news/national/article_fe9b9724-1526-557b-...

MisterTea 1y ago
> and the companies hiring them are screaming about stricter ICE enforcement.[3][4] Your statement matches nothing listed in those linked articles. [3] Talks about how the dairy industry is concerned as it relies on immigrant labor. [4] only quotes an "official of the plant" who says they are against illegal immigration, a personal opinion. [4] also amusingly paints the immigrants as tech savvy identity thieves which is laughable. Likely, it is whatever shady entity the employer uses to hire illegals allowing them to deny involvement.
- Animats 1y ago
  More references. US dairy operators needing immigrant labor. (Associated Press) [1] (Dairy Herd Management) [2] Meatpacking plant raids, effects. (Des Moines Register) [3] More available via Google. This is a major issue and there's lots of info available. [1] https://apnews.com/article/trump-immigration-farmworkers-vermont-aea999892ad6c752a360990e1c071527 https://apnews.com/article/trump-immigration-farmworkers-ver... [2] https://www.dairyherd.com/news/business/impact-immigration-reform-u-s-dairy-farms https://www.dairyherd.com/news/business/impact-immigration-r... [3] https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2025/06/11/ice-raid-omaha-glenn-valley-foods-meat-packing-plant/84151152007/ https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2025/06/11/ice-...

lpolovets 1y ago

This is secondhand and not firsthand knowledge, but one thing I've heard from a number of agtech founders (and sometimes farmers when we do diligence calls with them) is that hiring employees is very hard because of seasonality. E.g. you might need 100 workers most of the year, but 400 for a few weeks when it's picking season. And of course if you are in an area known for a single crop, all of the other local farms have the same seasonal labor need. For these types of businesses, paying less for labor is a secondary goal and just having enough labor (human or machine) is the primary goal.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
Scoundreller 1y ago
The US sugar beet harvest is like that, but seems to have structured itself around that. Lots of websites recruiting people with RVs to come by and work the 2-3 week season. Others stay in motels or live close enough to drive. https://www.google.com/search?q=beet+harvest+working https://www.google.com/search?q=beet+harvest+working https://www.theunbeetableexperience.com/sugar-beet-harvest-faq/ https://www.theunbeetableexperience.com/sugar-beet-harvest-f... Some places have/had the schools close for the harvest season (and in others, for the start of hunting season).