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It looks like Sweden's politicians are too sheltered to understand that there are people who enjoy sex work. Instead of trying to make it safe and enjoyable for
by free_bip 1y ago
It looks like Sweden's politicians are too sheltered to understand that there are people who enjoy sex work. Instead of trying to make it safe and enjoyable for all parties, they're systemically punishing sex workers, and even redefining the word sex to include onlyfans content (?!) while simultaneously calling them "victims."
The irony, of course, is that the only thing they're a "victim" of is those same politicians.
- quelsolaar 1y ago[flagged]
- frozenseven 1y agoThese are adults we're talking about. It's neither harmful nor any business of the government.
- quelsolaar 1y agoI'm ok with outlawing adults with free wills, getting payed to play russian roulett even if five out of six wont take a bullet to the head. Adults can be exploited too. "neither harmful", tells me you know nothing about the subject.
- wqaatwt 1y agoWhat does that have to do with children [as opposed to adults] working in the coal mines, though? Also while you might have a point in principle it has quite little to do with random chance like in the Russian Roulette example.
- quelsolaar 1y agoWe want to protect vulnerable members of society. they come in all sizes and shapes.
- wqaatwt 1y agoWhom gets to decide and determine who is “most vulnerable”? Also when it comes to the Nordic countries it’s rather hypothetical, considering that they (+Estonia) have one of the highest rates of drug overdose related deaths in the EU. Surely they would have adopted different policies on that already if their goal was protecting the most vulnerable rather than puritanical moralism?
- joe463369 1y ago> Whom gets to decide and determine who is “most vulnerable”? As galling as this is to American software developers, in this case it's the elected Swedish government
- wqaatwt 1y agoYes, That was implied in the question. Same government controlling drug policy and laws. Your point is?
- synecdoche 1y agoNevermind actual policy outcome when there is opportunity for posturing.
- frozenseven 1y agoYour examples and appeals to emotion make no sense. Dying from a gunshot wound is de facto harmful to someone. Driving a person to s-u-i-c-i-d-e is not an act of commerce between consenting adults.
- quelsolaar 1y agoMaybe the victims of gunshots wanted to be shot? People shoot themselves all the time. Should we make convictions of murder, depndent on proving that the victim dint actually want to get shot?
- frozenseven 1y agoYour hypotheticals are so outlandish and irrelevant, I honestly think you're trolling.
- free_bip 1y agoThis comment is deeply confusing. I'm really not sure what the argument is. Are you trying to say that any profession that has occupational hazards should be outlawed? In that case I hope you're ready to outlaw policing, firefighting, military, most professional sports, logging, and certainly a bunch of others I can't remember right now. Or perhaps you're saying that specifically because it ranks high on the list of most dangerous professions, that it should be outlawed? In that case I hope you're ready to outlaw (again) logging, fishing, roofing, aircraft piloting, derrick operators and more. I hope you've also considered that the reason it's dangerous in the first place is because of the criminalization and lack of regulations governing sex work. Or perhaps you just think that people are being pressured into doing sex work by their families, and therefore we should throw out the entire profession? In that case we need to be throwing out doctors, lawyers, and engineers. I'd appreciate some clarification on what exactly the argument is.
- quelsolaar 1y agoI'm saying that hiring people to do a job that is extremely dangerous, and likely to cause the worker harm, especially for your own enjoyment is exploitative. Most of the jobs you list are FAR safer then prostitution. But yes I would argue there are lots of other jobs that i would outlaw for the same reason. Like Bumfighting, a lot of dodgy construction, self harm, jobs without proper safety equipment, gladiators, and a lot of military recruitment. You are exploiting, or are very likely to be exploiting people in dire situations.
- free_bip 1y agoThanks for clarifying. And yes, you're right that objectively sex work (as in, having sex with someone, not the revisionist definition including onlyfans) is high up on the most dangerous professions list. However, that doesn't mean it has to be that way. My personal belief is that it should be treated a similar way to alcohol: - there are only specific, licensed places where you can get it - you must be over a certain age - you cannot enjoy it in public - establishments have a right to refuse service if you seem intoxicated or belligerent Plus, adding on security to check for weapons and intervene in the rare case of violence. In my opinion, if you combine all those regulations, sex work would be more than safe enough for it to not be considered a "dangerous" profession.
- pharrington 1y agoWhy did you say 12 year olds, ie children, instead of adults?
- burnt-resistor 1y agoThank you for moralizing with a red herring.
- jeroenhd 1y agoIf you're going to compare OnlyFans to coal mines, at least make the metaphor apt. I'm sure there are 18 year old men who enjoy working in coal mines, too. Actually, I think that premise was part of Trump's election campaign, so at least on the other side of the Atlantic that sentiment seems to work out.
- pharrington 1y agoSometimes you just miss!
- alephnerd 1y agoSwedish and to a certain extent Norwegian feminism is strongly opposed to sex work [0][1][2], as it is viewed as undermining gender equality (let's be honest - there isn't equivalent demand for meat markets of men) and exacerbating trafficking of women from poorer regions like Eastern Europe (it is extremely unlikely that someone in the sex industry is Swedish/Norwegian/Icelandic/Danish given the mixture of social bias and social safety net). The initial ban in Sweden was itself legislated in 1999 when the Riksdag became majority women. The libertarian and market-driven framing is a uniquely American and Canadian lens that doesn't hold much water in much of Europe - especially highly collectivist and monocultural societies like much of Scandinavia. It's the same with attitudes around drug legalization (zero-tolerance but with a heavy rehabilitation tilt is the mainstream view in much of Europe). [0] - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13545701.2010.541863 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13545701.2010.54... [1] - https://feminismandhumanrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/abolish-prostitution-gsekberg-rain-and-thunder-2008.pdf https://feminismandhumanrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/0... [2] - https://journals.kent.ac.uk/index.php/feministsatlaw/article/view/58/168 https://journals.kent.ac.uk/index.php/feministsatlaw/article...
- user982 1y agoAlso in Scandinavia, Iceland banned stripping.
- jeroenhd 1y ago> let's be honest - there isn't equivalent demand for meat markets of men I wouldn't underestimate that market. While men seem to consume more porn, "men" also includes "gay men" of course, who won't be quite as interested in seeing naked women even if we pretend women aren't interested in sex. Plus, women may only be about a half as interested in pornography as men (according to https://www.pornhub.com/insights/2024-year-in-review https://www.pornhub.com/insights/2024-year-in-review 38% of visitors were female), the market sure seems large enough. There are definitely market differences (the pay gap for male actors, for instance, and of course the double standard that judges women more than men for consuming such content) but the divide is not even close to absolute. Your post ("it is extremely unlikely that someone in the sex industry is Swedish/Norwegian/Icelandic/Danish given the mixture of social bias and social safety net") supposes that women go into the sex industry out of desperation, but that's not true. Some people are fine with selling their bodies, to various degrees, and don't have a problem making an income that way.
- guywithahat 1y ago> Sweden's politicians are too sheltered to understand that there are people who enjoy sex work That’s sort of like saying American politicians are too sheltered to understand people enjoy fentanyl
- free_bip 1y agoComparing a profession to the most addictive and harmful drug known to mankind (or at least close to it!) is an absurd strawman.
- wqaatwt 1y agoTo be fair if access to less dangerous opioid was less restricted fentanyl would be a lot less popular. Its extreme potency makes it much easier and profitable to traffic.
- guywithahat 1y agoIs sex not an addiction in your mind? The sex industry is terrible for everyone involved; it's addictive, it ruins the lives of the girls and men who work in it, it spreads dangerous diseases, and it doesn't contribute to the advancement of our society. I can't imagine why anyone would support it except out of a sadomasochist curiosity. I suspect (ironically) you may be too sheltered to understand why the sex industry is so harmful
- const_cast 1y ago[dead]
- jeroenhd 1y agoIt's a cultural difference. However, I feel like it's important to point out that selling sex isn't illegal, buying is. That means you won't be locked up for selling sex, the risk is on your customers. And while OnlyFans can technically be used to sell any digital content, it is mostly selling (softcore) pornography, which is obviously sex work. Categorising it as "digital content" or "a private service" may work to skirt around the American laws that outright criminalise sex workers, but it's not fooling anyone. Another point of note is that quite a few European countries struggle with human trafficking problems in the sex trade, even in countries where prostitution is completely legal. It's not like human traffickers haven't figured out that OnlyFans is an easy way to make money if they can manage enough accounts. There are also less obvious problems, like people who are strapped for cash and desperate, doing things they otherwise wouldn't and will later regret. Personally, I think sex work should just be regulated like normal work and the Swedish approach ("Nordic model") is counterproductive. While I think online sex work should be treated the same as offline sex work, I think banning it is moving in the wrong direction. It's still not as bad as criminalising sex workers themselves, of course.
- aiisjustanif 1y ago> it's important to point out that selling sex isn't illegal, buying is And “or operates a website that makes it easier to get in touch with adult content creators could be imprisoned for up to one year.”