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Stop Killing Games
- politelemon 1y agoI wonder if the author sees the dichotomy of the title, while preserving games for a platform that can choose to lock you out at their discretion. That aside it's surprising to hear about the features-behind-an-app behaviour from Bosch, they've normally been a trusted name in appliances for a long time and it seems even that is no longer going to be true.
- gxd 1y agoThey seem to be old Mac games. Old Macs are already being emulated and out of Apple's reach of you own an old copy of the OS. You can play these games forever even if Apple or the game makers go out of business.
- thrance 1y agoI mostly play solo games. I "obtain" a DRM-free copy of every game I own and put them in a private S3 for posterity. Just like I inherited a massive collection of SciFi books from my dad, I hope to pass everything I enjoyed to my kids, if I ever have some.
- glimshe 1y agoWhenever a game is available on Steam and GOG, I buy the GOG version for that reason. Everything guaranteed to be DRM-free.
- stanac 1y agoI do the same. Today I found out that humble bundle also has DRM-free games. There was a post about baba is you today. That game is not available on GOG but it is available on humble bundle.
- kemotep 1y agoIf you didn’t know about itch.io the creator of Baba is You publishes all their games there (ones not even on Steam too), you can get DRM free copies there.
- CyMonk 1y agothere are alot of drm free games released on steam. you can check this in advance by looking up the depots on steamdb and if the steamworks api files are included.
- jl6 1y agoOut of the frying pan (DRM-free), into the fire (S3)? Would your dad’s book collection have passed as easily to you if its existence was dependent on paying a monthly bill to a bookstore that can’t be completely trusted?
- bob1029 1y agoS3 is my go-to hoarder system now too. I trust that AWS can provide more resilient storage than I can. How many 9s are you getting in your closet at home? One thing I would suggest is using local encryption of anything you store in AWS. Plausible deniability is useful for all parties involved.
- magicalhippo 1y ago> How many 9s are you getting in your closet at home? Far, far better than my residential internet connection, that's for sure. Of course, I have offsite backup of important stuff in case of fire. That said, ease of use is likely a lot better with S3 for those who don't like to tinker or have a box sit and hum.
- klabb3 1y ago> How many 9s are you getting in your closet at home? Nobody cares about the 9s. If Amazon wants to they can render the service inoperable legally, over time. Fortunately, S3 is semi-standardized so it’s ”migratable” in a real sense. The real issue is getting locked out of your account for any arbitrary reason. This happens a lot with big tech and it can be impossible to get help by a human. That’s what scares me the most but more so with Google than Amazon (at the moment).
- poisonborz 1y agoAnything you don't own can go black any time regardless of how many 9s they write in the contract. You don't own it, you have a revokeable right of access.
- danlitt 1y agoAnything you own can go black at any time too. The question is how likely is it.
- bakugo 1y ago>I "obtain" a DRM-free copy of every game I own and put them in a private S3 for posterity What do you do for games that don't have "DRM-free copies", such as Denuvo games, or the increasingly large number of online-only singleplayer games?
- m-schuetz 1y agoNot OP, but since Diablo3 and its server issues that often locked my out of what's supposed to be a single-player game, I absolutely refuse to buy online-only-single player games. And anything from Blizzard.
- thrance 1y agoIf I can't obtain a DRM-free copy of a game I already paid for, I'll seek "alternative ways". I mostly play indie games though, and I haven't had much trouble with my archiving endeavors.
- tcfhgj 1y agoamazon account ban incoming
- thrance 1y agoNot hosted on Amazon.
- nkrisc 1y agoDoes “videogame” have a specific, legal definition in the EU? When does software become a videogame?
- scotty79 1y agoIt doesn't have to be only about video games. I'm hoping it's gonna be about all software and all software vendors will be obligated to leave their software in working condition after they sunset it. The best take on this I read is that companies must prepare a way to transfer the product to the community after they no longer find it profitable. And that would be wonderful for all products. Not just software.
- TylerE 1y agoI don't understand the idea that imposing some sort of infinite future obligation on an organization that can be easily made to not exist can possibly be viable. Frankly I think this whole "movement" is kinda dumb and deeply misguided.
- wvbdmp 1y agoIt’s not that hard to just publish your stuff when you’re done with it. I guess you could put it in escrow for, say, 10 years, in case you decide to do something with it later.
- TylerE 1y agoAlmost all games include large amounts of licensed code. Without the source to that what good does having the source for the game matter? Or the server?
- wvbdmp 1y agoThe licensing agreements just need to change accordingly such that dependencies will be available for preservation efforts. Laws can just make things happen. If you don’t want to participate in the market under these conditions, tough luck. Someone else will. There’s still plenty of room to make money from software.
- Negitivefrags 1y agoA company runs an online game. The actual online infrastructure is a bunch of different services that are held together with string. They have licenced some propriatry database. The studio runs out of money and lays off all the staff. What happens?
- gear54rus 1y agoThey don't release it unless it also has LAN play option (like they used to before MBA takeover). Otherwise bye bye to jail :)
- eviks 1y agoIf only the article covered that... > And some games have online components. Do I expect, for example, Bungie's multiplayer servers to stay up until the end of time? No.
- Negitivefrags 1y agoThe stop killing games initiative does specifically want to apply to online only games.
- eviks 1y agoNo? > neither does it expect the publisher to provide resources for the said videogame once they discontinue it while leaving it in a reasonably functional (playable) state. https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/20... Why do you think that?
- Negitivefrags 1y agoIt is incredibly clear looking at this FAQ that this intends to apply to online only games. https://www.stopkillinggames.com/faq https://www.stopkillinggames.com/faq Multiple questions are about online-only games.
- matt3210 1y agoThey can’t release source code because 70% of it is stolen from previous employers or open source
- stanac 1y agoOr licensed by a third party and they does not want their code to become public knowledge.
- tsukikage 1y ago...or just, y'know, embarrassing.
- kaycey2022 1y agoOr because open source is not an obligation.
- seydor 1y agoi bought GTAV and some assassin's creed. I dont want to play, i just like to roam around the virtual world to relax. But i can't relax anymore because every time they launch they need to download 1 full day of updates that i dont need.
- tomw1808 1y agosame here. It's actually relaxing to just drive around with different cars into the sunset, turn the radio on and occasionally overrun some pedestrians. I knew I can't be the only one finding it relaxing, yet the anxiety before starting the game if I can play it or not because of yet another update is really a downturn.
- tetris11 1y agoThe only way to play these games are through the tireless work of the Amelie-clad repackers. I own these games, but I still use the repacked games instead just because they allow me to actually play it fully offline
- pinoy420 1y ago[dead]
- ivanjermakov 1y agoYou don't have to wait if you pirate it. A little ironically, Gabe Newell's quote fits there nicely: > Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem
- contrarian1234 1y agoI think the bulk of this is kind of a silly semantic argument "After all, I didn't click 'Rent now'. I paid 60 bucks and clicked a button that said 'Buy'" With all the Terms of Service, you rarely actually "own" a piece of software. If all the "Buy" buttons were replaced with "Lease License" buttons - would that really change everything..? everyone would suddenly stop complaining？ I doubt it B/c the core issue is people/consumers feel entitled to relive childhood experiences. But just like you don't have some inaliable right to go see Terminator in theaters because you did it once as a kid. I don't see why you have a right to emulate and replay a game. You don't own a right to enjoy other people's work. If they want to show it to you once and then burn it in a fire - that's their right. They have the right to distribute it the way they see fit. I think it's easier to think of the mortality when it's not a big mega corporation and think of it as a singular person's creation and you as a passive consumer asserting your rights to what they made and how they should share it The secondary issue of "owned" and "leased" being not clearly labeled.. I think is an issue. You should know a priori what you're getting in to - and at the moment it's really unclear at times (ex the washing machine example)
- Etheryte 1y agoWords mean something and the meaning matters. If you buy a lawnmower from me and I come around later claiming you were only renting it, you would justifiably tell me to piss off. That this was ever allowed to pass in the digital world is a shame.
- contrarian1234 1y agoSo you think changing the Buy buttons to Lease License buttons would genuinely solve the author's problems?
- lukebechtel 1y agoIdentifying a problem is the first step to solving it. Changing these buttons to "Rent" would force people to acknowledge what they're getting for their $60 bucks -- effectively a rental. Once the problem is identified en masse, capitalism can do its work more efficiently.
- bambax 1y ago> I bought a Bosch 500 series because our old one broke, and we needed one quick. Slightly OT (or maybe not) older dishwashers are usually not very hard to fix (depending on the problem). My dishwasher is over ten years old. The pump broke: I replaced it. It was easy and cheap (EUR 60). It wasn't even the pump that was broken, just the heating resistance attached to it that had fried. You can replace only the resistor if you're skilled enough to reattach a new one. I couldn't: removing the old one was easy, but I couldn't put it back in place so I bought a whole pump instead. Likewise, my laundry machine is over 15 years old. I just replaced the carbon brushes: they last for something like 10 years and cost less than EUR 10 a pair. I don't think I will buy a new machine any time soon, or if I have to, it will be a used one.
- tomw1808 1y agoshhhhush, corporates hate this trick :P
- tetris11 1y agoSame with ovens. Stopped heating? Check the heating coil either at the back, top, or bottom of the oven. You won't even need to pull the oven out, chances are you can unscrew it right there from within. £20 replacement coil for 10 minutes of work, or pay for a whole new oven? (The retailer assured us over the phone that they could not repair it, but had great discounts on new ovens...)
- hnaccount_rng 1y agoBut in order for an unskilled (no value judgement intended) person to fix that, this means having the technician run out to their house and find out whether that's the case. That's an hour of work, at least. What does a new oven retail for? Add to that the expectation value of "need to come back because it's not the first thing I tried" and that replacement oven with fresh warranty starts looking even cheaper
- tetris11 1y agoThe diagnosis is found in that 1 page in the device booklet "troubleshooting", or through a quick internet search. It's worth forking out £20 first, seeing if you can fix it, and then if not escalating the cost.
- smusamashah 1y agoI have lots of games on steam (epic and Gog) too. I fear death of these platforms or removal or games that I 'own' already. I only recently started buying games, even bought the games out of guilt that I previously played pirated. I think best is to buy a game from these platforms, and as a permanent backup, download a pirated copy of that game.
- PufPufPuf 1y agoOn GOG, you can just download the standalone installers, they are all DRM-free. That's why I prefer buying there.
- coffeebeqn 1y agoDon’t many of them still phone home to fetch your player data when you log in etc. often when the servers go down even if you they’re not core to the experience no one thought to make a “offline” mode work
- nottorp 1y agoMost games are still single player. It's the big predatory names that tend to go multiplayer first, or require players being online even for single player. Fuck you rockstar btw, for lying on the steam page that a rockstar club account isn't required for max payne 3 single player.
- tremon 1y agoI run my GOG games in a networkless namespace (only loopback available) for pretty much that reason, and I've yet to encounter the first game that has in-game issues about it. The worst result I've seen is that changelogs or devlogs don't render.
- kaycey2022 1y agoPhoning home isn’t wrong. Ideally in the case of the crew, if the management had an ounce of brains they would have got a couple of devs to patch that code such that it wouldn’t make the game inoperable even though the servers don’t respond. But then some idiot executive might have opposed that patch saying we cannot remove “DRM Protection” from our properties. The problem here is that company executives and leadership, especially in outfits like Ubisoft, have no vision no skill. They are just MBA grifters who are milking brands and pretending they are looking out for the shareholders. These parasites would simply move from company to company, spreading their poison everywhere. And now there is crazy talk of forcing code to be open source. Absolute madness.
- wtcactus 1y agoFrom what I’ve been seeing lately: “If buying isn’t owning, then pirating isn’t stealing.” I holeheartedly agree with it. I used to have a Netflix subscription until about 3 years ago. Then, the quantity and quality of content got so bad, I’ve reverted back to a trusty radarr + sonarr + BitTorrent solution. Not only it’s faster to have it all hosted locally, but I also don’t go through mindless binge watching as the only content available is that I’ve previously willingly tag it for download. Now, the only content I pay is when I go to the cinema sometimes when a movie really seems worth it.
- raincole 1y agoYet, when buying WAS owning (when physical copies of games were prevalent), it didn't stop pirating. Quite the opposite. You can have your own moral compass. But most people who pirated games didn't do that out of spite. They didn't do that to protest against game-as-a-service or microtransaction or whatever "unethical" practices that the industry adopted.
- elric 1y agoThis is not a new phenomenon. Back in the late 90s, Virgin Interactive released my all time favourite game: Subspace. I bought the boxed edition. Not long after, they shut down their servers leaving a lot of people disappointed. The community stepped up and started running their own servers. Eventually the game client proper was also rewritten (by one of the guys who would go on to create Kazaa and Skype). I don't think anyone expects companies to keep servers running for free forever. But if a community steps up, the IP holders should let it.
- Frenchgeek 1y agoThe community can't help every game unfortunately. Having a proper end-of-life plan from the start would solve that particular issue (Either by having documentation to keep the game alive, or a clearly stated expiration date, depending on games being sold as goods or services.)
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- zeroCalories 1y agoI am much more sympathetic to the concerns about classic appliances becoming IOT slop, GNU, and stuff like right-to-repair, as these concern expensive, nearly non-negotiable, things you have to interact with. But I honestly just don't care about video games. If a game company pisses me off, I'm just gonna not play it, and opt for one of the thousands of other games that came out this year. This is needless regulation, and will probably be counterproductive to your interests in the long run. Not only that, this is such a small problem in the grand scale of things, that I don't know why we're giving it breath. Law makers have far more important things to concern themselves with. This feels like a South Park parody of hand-wringing nerds crying about video games because they have nothing else worthwhile in their life.
- firesteelrain 1y agoAs much as a I like older games for the nostalgia sake, are there any other industries where this is an issue? I don’t think passing laws is the right thing to do
- ozlikethewizard 1y agoUK Government already denied the UK petition :(
- dandersch 1y agoThe original petition died because Parliament dissolved. This is the new one that the UK Parliament has to consider for a debate as of right now.
- ozlikethewizard 1y agoIf you scroll to the bottom of the petition it's already been considered, the consideration was "no".
- dandersch 1y agoThe current state is at the top. It says "Waiting for 3 days for a debate date".
- hmans 1y ago[dead]
- scotty79 1y agoLibreELEC looks extremely polished https://archive.org/details/libreelec-raspberry-pi-5 https://archive.org/details/libreelec-raspberry-pi-5
- phendrenad2 1y agoWhat people keep failing to understand about Stop Killing Games is that the proposal is intentionally vague and doesn't fully specify its demands. The intent is to open a conversation, not think through every corner case. Of course, the logical minds here will want to tear it apart and analyze it from every direction, but don't forget that it still needs to be "transformed" into an actual non-vague version. Part of me worries it'll get transformed into some onerous GDPR-style law that just adds a new annoying banner when you install a game that warns you that you accept whatever end of life plan the game has, which no one will read...
- gond 1y agoI think we won’t have to endure that again. Contrary to popular belief, the EU organs are able to learn. About half a year ago, I read statements of members which, if one would translate the political jargon, would amount to: “We haven’t foreseen such a blatant misuse of the law. These banners should never have happened and we would not have dreamed that corporations would shift the burden to the user. We are, in fact, quite furious about the whole thing.”
- phendrenad2 1y agoInteresting. But I don't think they have learned much if they think being really angry about it will help.
- gond 1y agoAre you saying that if some person is making a mistake, is angry about making the mistake at all, that this person will just happily do the mistake again because being angry about one’s own mistake is such a beautiful state of mind? I am unsure of how your mental model of ‘error correction’ is working without starting at the point of recognising an error in the first place - just deliberately ignoring for a moment whatever you emotionally might attach to it. I would say the just checked the fist step with bravery by openly admitting the mistake.
- 1y ago
- ChrisArchitect 1y agoLots more discussion from 3 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44445880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44445880
- kaycey2022 1y agoStop killings games is reasonable, but why can’t “you” stop demanding free labour? This whole thing is categorisation and labelling issue. The terms of transaction must be made clear with as big and bold letters as possible. Game devs should be free to create and sell games as they wish provided the terms of transaction are clear. If they don’t want to sell server binaries or open source code, then it is crazy to force them to do so. Platforms can encourage games which have a clear sunset plan over those that don’t. Eventually the market should come up with viable solutions rather than a law made by untrained people over what and how software should be created.
- saulSaul1998zx 1y ago[flagged]