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Ask HN: I want to leave tech: what do I do?

164 points by todsacerdoti 1y ago

dale_huevo 1y ago
Might I suggest working on chronic pain?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- epizootics 1y ago
  lol
- osigurdson 1y ago
  I know of two cases where people quit tech to become physiotherapists. I think if you own your own practice it might pay fairly well.
kadushka 1y ago
The article is about staying in tech.
- teiferer 1y ago
  [dead]
- fullshark 1y ago
  Correct, it's about leaving the private sector corporate / startup grind
lofaszvanitt 1y ago
go out and touch grass, feed the birbs
9283409232 1y ago
The title is a bit clickbait because it's not really about leaving tech, it's about leaving the bullshit behind. If you don't want to work for FAANG actively ruining the world then you have options. In addition to what is posted here, the best advice I can give is to work at a company that isn't a tech company. More regular companies than you think employ software engineers.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  I worked the majority of my career at an optical equipment manufacturer. It was technical, but in a very old-fashioned sense (sometimes, too "old-fashioned"). One of the reasons that I stayed there, was because I was satisfied that most applications of our products were for artistic, creative, or scientific purposes. I felt decent about working there. Also, the culture was very focused on delivering the very best to our end-users. Unlike almost every tech company in existence, these days, the company was not interested in selling itself.
  - 9283409232 1y ago
    This is what I mean. Thanks for giving an example. There are very normal not sexy companies that need engineers.
  - turnsout 1y ago
    What was the company? Sounds cool!
    - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
      I don't usually mention the name in public, but it is one of the top Japanese camera manufacturers (Starts with "N"). They weren't always peaceful, though. Their Nishi-Oi factory had a rail and mount system for submarine periscopes.
      - turnsout 1y ago
        Oh, very cool! I’m also a photographer, so that sounds like a dream job. Any advice on breaking into this space as a software developer?
ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
Interesting. I had just mentioned reading this article (2015): https://eev.ee/blog/2015/06/09/i-quit-the-tech-industry/ https://eev.ee/blog/2015/06/09/i-quit-the-tech-industry/ Kinda related.
gagabity 1y ago
Moving to a much cheaper country is probably the way if you have money saved up or can sell a house.
mathiaspoint 1y ago
Buy rural land and live on investments while you start a small business. That's what I'm doing. I think we need a monthly "who wants to be fired" thread where we share our progress on this.
- the_real_cher 1y ago
  love this!
- atemerev 1y ago
  If you already have enough investments to not work, why would anyone even work in tech? Leaving the grind when you already kind or rich is easy mode. Leaving it when your net worth is negative is another story.
  - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
    Why would anyone work in tech? Because making something that didn't exist before is kind of a thrill. (No, that is not the same as cranking through Jira tickets...)
    - thih9 1y ago
      Note that this joy is not unique to tech. Carpenters, farmers, painters, etc, all make things that didn’t exist before. Some of them haven’t heard about Jira.
    - tekla 1y ago
      May I introduce you to all of blue collar work.
    - codingdave 1y ago
      That thrill is present in any creative endeavor. If you like tech and enjoy that thrill, yeah, work in tech. At the same time, if you are tired of tech and want that thrill, go make something else. I'm a collector of hobbies at this point, having at least dabbled (if not more) in woodworking, stone carving, jewelry making, furniture upholstery, fused glass, painting, drawing, sculpture, clothing design, and creating nature trails in our forest. They all give that thrill. Tech pays better, though - so I work in tech to pay the bills, then spend the money on tools to get that creative thrill somewhere else.
Jcampuzano2 1y ago
This article is not a "I want to leave tech" article. It is an "I want to have more ownership of the nature of my work" article. Practically every recommendation is also a tech job, its just not "big tech" where you have very little real decision making power. Tech itself is not the issue here - tech being filled with high paying jobs where you effectively work on issues that directly damage humanity is the issue. And after you have a high paying job its hard to justify leaving it, and every other similarly paying job is basically the same thing in a different package.
- benreesman 1y ago
  This is the most important comment I've read in a while. It has become really easy to feel trapped in software as a trade even though I love working on software as much or more than ever in the details of the work. I'm fortunate that my current gig doesn't involve doing anything that I find directly objectionable in a Hippocratic Oath sense (though some might, its trading stuff which I long ago decided is about a 1.01 out of Meta on a scale of 1 to OpenAI). The thing is that the software business has discovered its Three Big Lies: - Everything is Exponential (Sigmoids are For The Small Thinkers) - Breaking The Law is Progress if You Do It With a Computer - Computer People Know What's Best Other industries that have become tentacled over the years have had similar Big Lies (High Finance has Price Movements are Gaussian Distributed for example, and Bailouts are The Business Cycle). I'm at the age both in life and career terms where its like, this could be a cyclic thing and these assholes are going to get thrown out soon, or it could be I came of age in an aberrant exceptionally good time, this is how it always ends up. What I do know is that that software is an effective tool for mitigating the damage of malware, excellent computers are cheap now, and so it might be possible to fund an effective resistance doing rewarding work for the greater good with frugality and some creativity about paying the bills, I'm still figuring out the details.
  - catlover76 1y ago
    [dead]
  - cjs_ac 1y ago
    Insightful comment. I think there's a dividing line in society between those who understand systems and those who don't. The systems people look at the non-systems people as stupid; the non-systems people look at the systems people as evil.
robertclaus 1y ago
It feels like this is missing the mid sized company that isn't looking to grow and IPO. There are plenty of companies that just have a product and sell it to make payroll. They're just overlooked in the hustle.
- pydry 1y ago
  these are usually worse, especially if IT is treated as a cost center and the SME is run by people with autocratic tendencies. half of the questions on /r/cscareerquestions are about how to deal with working in this type of company ("why does the boss always defer to his nephew who cant code his way out of a paper bag?") or how to get out ("where are all the jobs paying over $100k?").
- OjotCewIo 1y ago
  > company that isn't looking to grow I don't think such a thing exists (unfortunately). Show me a business leader that says, "oh we've been successful, we've got orders and new clients lined up, but no, I won't hire more workers, more managers, and turn our flat org structure into a hierarchy, because I want my employees to have a sustainable and fulfilling work experience, and because I want my current customers to enjoy the usual, stable service or product quality". Only a unicorn would not perceive saying "no" to growth as leaving money on the table.
bradlys 1y ago
Written by a European. Reality is - if you’re an American and got into tech and are working for well paying tech companies, you’re not leaving and there’s no escape unless you fatFIRE. This is why FIRE is so big among the Silicon Valley tech crowd. Everyone knows. What’s the alternative for an American tech worker (primarily the people who read HN) who wants to stay where they live, keep a similar quality of living, and not work in toxic faang-esque H1B factories? There ain’t one.
- atemerev 1y ago
  Emigration? It is really easy for Americans to move to Europe. If you are Russian, Pakistani or Kenian, that's another story.
  - injidup 1y ago
    Honesty I don't think USA tech workers would fit with European workplace culture. Imagine some cali crypto bro refugee pulling out his Cheese wiz or bud light in a French startup's Canteen. There would be a riot and then dudes in tractors would be blocking the highways demanding "the government do something"
- Muromec 1y ago
  (Un)fortunately, changing lifestyle is a painful and necessary prerequisite for leaving the bubble.
- teiferer 1y ago
  [dead]
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago
  If by "keep a similar quality of living" you mean "keep FAANG-sized paychecks", there probably isn't an alternative. If you mean "keep upper-middle-class paychecks", well, there's more to "tech" than just web programming. For instance, embedded systems is pretty good. Yeah, they don't pay FAANG levels, and they never will. They typically aren't a "toxic faang-esque HIB factory", though.
gdbsjjdn 1y ago
If you want to leave tech you should save up for 4-5 years of expenses to accomodate for under-employment, downsize your lifestyle to fit a household income under 80k, and then reskill in another field. I have tried to move away incrementally from the tech industry by working less and consulting, and it is not effective. There's simply nothing else you can do that pays as well for so little effort. It draws you back in like a tarpit because there's always more work to do. Committing to a clean break and immersing yourself in a new field seems like the better approach.
- OjotCewIo 1y ago
  Assuming that you save 1/3rd of your monthly net income, and spend only 2/3rds of it on expenses -- which I believe is already beyond what most people can do --, and that you are already frugal (which means that you don't have easily cuttable expenses [*]), you'd need to save twice as long as you planned to live off of those savings. If you wanted a buffer for 4-5 years, you'd need to pinch every penny for 8-10 years, and do that -- presumably -- while you are in your thirties, and raising kids. This can work, but mostly as an exception, I think. [*] I don't consider expenses that improve health and lifestyle "cuttable" -- organic food, locally produced meat, food supplements / vitamins, therapy, dentist, gym / sports, etc. I've recently learned that even holiday trips (which are insanely expensive, assuming you are not from the US, to the point of being financially injustifiable) are crucial for mental and marital health.
  - gdbsjjdn 1y ago
    If you don't consider any expenses "cuttable" you're not downsizing. Especially taking expensive vacations? I travel a couple times a year domestically by driving and it's very manageable.
senko 1y ago
This is "grass is greener" type article: > Working for a public institution This may vary from country to country, but in my part of the world, public institutions are mostly dysfunctional, political, nepotistic, filled with cronies and people with negative productivity. And then there's one bright eyed idealist who actually does most of the work until they realize they're being taken advantage of, learn their lesson and starts behaving the same (or leave for private sector). > Joining a tech co-operative ie. become a freelancer or start/join a consultancy; sure, but after a couple dozen projects, it starts feeling the same as a corpo job. > Joining a tech NGO Again, may vary from country to country. Here NGOs are incredibly political things and desperately dependent on continous outside funding (the two are interconnected). You'll switch office politics for NGO politics. > Working for a union or a party Politicians and union representatives are some of the last people I'd ever want to socialize with. > Becoming a mentor or a teacher That's nice, but can you live on that salary? > Becoming a techno-political hustler For an article that starts with one's quest to find a more meaningful job, this is about as far removed from it as "used car salesman that exclusively uses bitcoin payday loans financing". At the same time, some of the more promising alternatives that crop up at local IT watering holes are floor tiling, plumbing, roofing, ... All honest work, good pay, visible results, and zero bullshit.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- OjotCewIo 1y ago
  Agree with your points about public institutions and NGOs. Where I live, having NGO projects on your CV could even work against you (in case you were looking for a government job, down the line). > floor tiling, plumbing, roofing, ... All honest work, good pay, visible results, and zero bullshit I'm not sure. First, you need to be good at it. "Leaving tech" does not necessarily imply "good at trades". Second, you need to be very flexible in the quality vs. delivery time tradeoff (and personally I find that really difficult). Third, I'm not keen on talking with clients directly. Fourth, even if there's a general contractor, representatives of the different trades always blame each other, when things go wrong, or the schedule slips.
jghn 1y ago
First thing to do is get used to a much lower salary. Mostly kidding but channeling how often I see sentiments online of people saying they want to leave tech and then balk at the salaries normal people have.
- micromacrofoot 1y ago
  that's the hard part for me, I'd have to change every aspect of my life because any other job would probably start me at 25% of what I make now sell my house, put my kids in a different school district, be terrified about health insurance if I fail I'd have to go back into tech and would have uprooted everything in a way that's probably irreversible
  - bdangubic 1y ago
    I’ve heard this argument many times; some of those times it came out of my own mouth. the thing is… if you and your spouse get a 25% bump in salary right now, a year or so from now it is likely you’d write the exact same comment as this one above even though a year ago you were in the same boat and obviously managed beautifully without the extra 25%… :)
    - TeMPOraL 1y ago
      It's easier to move in one direction than the other :). People have goals, getting a bump in salary lets them achieve those goals faster; getting a 75% cut on the salary means undoing all that and then some. Not to mention, costs of everything also go up, and our bodies are not getting younger and healthier either. If you're to give up your current salary for the one you had 5 years ago, you wouldn't afford the kind of life you had 5 years ago.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - Everdred2dx 1y ago
      Not to discount your overall point, but you're comparing a 25% increase with a 75% decrease here. Not quite the same thing
haskellandchill 1y ago
tech to med school pipeline, don't recommend it but I'm happy
- bradlys 1y ago
  What age did you start med school? Probably not feasible for those of us who didn’t have stellar academic records. (Regardless of professional accomplishment)
apriljo 1y ago
To summarize the article, Problem: How to leave tech. Solution: Enter tech!
osigurdson 1y ago
>> the public sector offers more relaxed environments and more meaningful problems to work on The public sector may provide more relaxed environments but it isn't clear that you will work on more meaningful problems.
- evantbyrne 1y ago
  Public workers are more positively impactful to the operation of society than many engineers working in digital widget factories. Bureaucracy limits potential, for good reason, but doing something is still more than nothing.
  - osigurdson 1y ago
    Except that the public sector workers are being paid for by the engineers working in the digital widget factories. So the core of the "positive" impact is coming from private industry. Maybe it is morally superior in the end to work at a digital widget factory so that others can chill and work in the public sector.
tootie 1y ago
Almost every complaint I see about working in tech is 90% applicable to any industry. The problem in every company is other people. Some are greedy, selfish, dishonest. Some mean well but market forces demand unsavory practices. You won't escape it by trading a keyboard for a hammer or a pastry bag or whatever. You have to either have a specific target in mind. Like you actually love doing some other thing and want it to be your career. Or, as the article lays out, just keep doing tech someplace more fulfilling. Having spent time in tech in both government and nonprofit space, I can tell you the organizations are not very different from corporate ones. Day-to-day frustrations are very similar. You have to just take heart in doing something constructive for the public good.
miika 1y ago
I’m thinking what I could offer for the world if there was no computers or even electricity. I don’t have too many ideas and this article didn’t help. To continue working without coding, while still making use of coding skills and experience, I suppose roles like CTO or technical project lead might be suitable?
throw10920 1y ago
The meme with all of the buzzwords around Shinji suggests that the author doesn't really understand that that stifing environment is due to bureaucracy rather than working in tech. You can be in a large non-tech company (or government agency, technical or not - source: I survived one) and have the same miserable experience. You can work in a small tech company and get very little of it. The idea that you'll escape by "Working for a public institution" is goofy.
- OjotCewIo 1y ago
  > The idea that you'll escape by "Working for a public institution" is goofy. I agree. Where I live, "public institution" is code for "infinite inefficiency and corruption".
ChrisArchitect 1y ago
Some related recent Asks: (related to the concept of the title anyways, not so much the body) Ask HN: Is anyone else just done with the industry? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44393304 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44393304 Ask HN: I don't want to work in software anymore. Where do I go? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43836353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43836353 Ask HN: Facing unemployment – what now? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44008554 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44008554 Ask HN: Decided I no longer want to be a SWE – what next? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44110944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44110944
hliyan 1y ago
One of the happiest periods of my life was when I was working for a non-profit tech company building software for humanitarian work (human rights documentation, labour law compliance, election monitoring etc), after working a full decade in capital markets trading systems. Half the salary for 2 years, did a number on my savings, but it recharged me enough to return to the industry, with expertise in a new tech stack. It was in fact during this period I became a regular reader/contributor to HN. I understand that this option may not be available to all. I suppose my point is that you may not actually need to leave the industry permanently. Just long enough for you to recharge and find a way to repel the BS without psychological trauma (and without causing psychological trauma to others).
- WA 1y ago
  How did you find out about the non-profit company and got into it?
  - hliyan 1y ago
    Pure luck. A friend of mine was one of the founders. This was in 2013.
- OjotCewIo 1y ago
  Good for you! Alas, as you say, this is mostly pure luck. And not sustainable over the longer term, financially speaking.
spencerflem 1y ago
Not sure how much I vibe with the conclusions but the intro captures my feelings perfectly
jschveibinz 1y ago
Uncle J. here, sitting in my rocking chair... There are so many problems to solve. I always like to post these lists when an article like this is posted on HN and the discussion ensues about what feels good to work on. There are so many problems that need your help to solve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_global_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_global_issues My father always told me: "you will have a vocation, and an avocation. They are separate activities." What he was telling me is that I should find a job, and a hobby. And they should be separate. I believe that there has been a severe injustice done to students over the past 30-40 years by instructing them to find a job that is their passion. That's putting too much pressure on a person; and it’s largely unachievable. It's okay to make money doing one thing, and enjoy yourself by accomplishing something great doing another.
- OjotCewIo 1y ago
  > It's okay to make money doing one thing, and enjoy yourself by accomplishing something great doing another. Maybe. First, the thing done for money (or the way it is done) shouldn't at least be at odds with your identity (and/or work ethic). Second, if you consider how large a proportion of our waking lives are spent at work, you start questioning whether just "neutral" is good enough, for a job.
tomfucksdan 1y ago
[dead]
nyarlathotep_ 1y ago
Considering the scale and frequency of layoffs across the board and the difficulty of finding a new job for many, you could just...run out the clock and wait for the inevitable?
- OjotCewIo 1y ago
  Sitting on death row is psychologically devastating.
dixong 1y ago
Seems like the majority of arguments against the articles premise are the inability to sacrifice exorbitant living standards. I left big tech in 2022 and much happier living on a tiny fraction. It's called sacrifice. I personally don't understand why people need so much money. A family of 3 can easily live on $150k even in a HCOL area.
- OjotCewIo 1y ago
  > I personally don't understand why people need so much money - healthcare (where I live, we have public health care, i.e., my salary is taxed to oblivion, but if you want good for yourself and your family, you'll pay a second time, and seek out private practices / clinics) - housing crisis, with unpreditable and unreliable rental market: you really want your children to start their own lives in small apartments that are owned by the family. And in the opposite generational direction: at some point your parents (or in-laws) will start dying, and the widow(er)s may have to be moved to different towns, apartments, assisted living facilities. - healthcare#2: food supplements, therapy, gym, sports -- requires both a lot of money and a lot of time. No time for side jobs. - home maintenance, car maintenance, etc. In short, there's never enough money. If you don't spend your income all at once -- and you really should not spend it at once --, you will definitely spend it later, on valid things. I guess it depends on how you view the world. Trustworthy and reliable? Then less money is fine, and the "sacrifice" that you mention only seems to apply to "exorbitant living standards". But if you view the world as hostile, unfair, at best indifferent and uncaring, then money equals safety, and you'll never feel you have enough of it -- even though you could be a responsible and frugal person already.
mmarian 1y ago
Techno-political hustler sounds fun tbh. Sounds like you need to have a fundraising network though, which often means coming from a well-off background. A shame.
mgarfias 1y ago
I want to leave tech as well. Unfortunately I can't figure out how to replace my income (yet). I'm working on a VERY niche SaaS offering, that has some novel growth areas. But getting time to work on it is slow going. Maybe it will some day be enough to replace my income, and I can bail on the FTE thing.
lrvick 1y ago
Starting a security focused Co-op was the path that made me happy. I can make a living open sourcing everything I do and working on what I want. YMMV.
fud101 1y ago
This article is a version of selling shovels I didn't consider. Nice one.
zbentley 1y ago
Consider public service software/IT engineering. Contrary to popular belief, in the US there are state/federal government software jobs. They don’t pay as well as the private sector, but it’s only a few steps down, not “get used to earning 20% as much”. Is the bullshit rate in many of those jobs incredibly high? Absolutely. But can a talented generalist from the private sector make huge improvements for real people? You bet. So much of government IT is crippled by dated approaches and over-reliance on contractors (and the lack of knowledge of best practices that comes from very few folks transitioning from the private sector—those few steps down in salary are not a road often travelled). As a result, someone with talent and familiarity with how much better things can be (and a willingness to push on broken rules/processes) can have a huge impact. You’ll have to do a lot of “here is a prototype nobody asked for built in a way nobody here is currently allowed to build it”-type performing in the first year or two, but at the right government agency folks who do that get to deliver massive benefits to real people every day. There are enough sub components of government (agencies, sub-agencies, state, municipal) that you can easily find work you agree with. It’s frustrating to apply, but truly: once in the door, talented folks can achieve a huge amount.

164 points by todsacerdoti 1y ago

dale_huevo 1y ago

Might I suggest working on chronic pain?

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
epizootics 1y ago
lol
osigurdson 1y ago
I know of two cases where people quit tech to become physiotherapists. I think if you own your own practice it might pay fairly well.

kadushka 1y ago

The article is about staying in tech.

teiferer 1y ago
[dead]
fullshark 1y ago
Correct, it's about leaving the private sector corporate / startup grind

lofaszvanitt 1y ago

go out and touch grass, feed the birbs

9283409232 1y ago

The title is a bit clickbait because it's not really about leaving tech, it's about leaving the bullshit behind. If you don't want to work for FAANG actively ruining the world then you have options. In addition to what is posted here, the best advice I can give is to work at a company that isn't a tech company. More regular companies than you think employ software engineers.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
I worked the majority of my career at an optical equipment manufacturer. It was technical, but in a very old-fashioned sense (sometimes, too "old-fashioned"). One of the reasons that I stayed there, was because I was satisfied that most applications of our products were for artistic, creative, or scientific purposes. I felt decent about working there. Also, the culture was very focused on delivering the very best to our end-users. Unlike almost every tech company in existence, these days, the company was not interested in selling itself.
- 9283409232 1y ago
  This is what I mean. Thanks for giving an example. There are very normal not sexy companies that need engineers.
- turnsout 1y ago
  What was the company? Sounds cool!
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    I don't usually mention the name in public, but it is one of the top Japanese camera manufacturers (Starts with "N"). They weren't always peaceful, though. Their Nishi-Oi factory had a rail and mount system for submarine periscopes.
    - turnsout 1y ago
      Oh, very cool! I’m also a photographer, so that sounds like a dream job. Any advice on breaking into this space as a software developer?

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago

Interesting. I had just mentioned reading this article (2015): https://eev.ee/blog/2015/06/09/i-quit-the-tech-industry/ https://eev.ee/blog/2015/06/09/i-quit-the-tech-industry/ Kinda related.

gagabity 1y ago

Moving to a much cheaper country is probably the way if you have money saved up or can sell a house.

mathiaspoint 1y ago

Buy rural land and live on investments while you start a small business. That's what I'm doing. I think we need a monthly "who wants to be fired" thread where we share our progress on this.

the_real_cher 1y ago
love this!
atemerev 1y ago
If you already have enough investments to not work, why would anyone even work in tech? Leaving the grind when you already kind or rich is easy mode. Leaving it when your net worth is negative is another story.
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago
  Why would anyone work in tech? Because making something that didn't exist before is kind of a thrill. (No, that is not the same as cranking through Jira tickets...)
  - thih9 1y ago
    Note that this joy is not unique to tech. Carpenters, farmers, painters, etc, all make things that didn’t exist before. Some of them haven’t heard about Jira.
  - tekla 1y ago
    May I introduce you to all of blue collar work.
  - codingdave 1y ago
    That thrill is present in any creative endeavor. If you like tech and enjoy that thrill, yeah, work in tech. At the same time, if you are tired of tech and want that thrill, go make something else. I'm a collector of hobbies at this point, having at least dabbled (if not more) in woodworking, stone carving, jewelry making, furniture upholstery, fused glass, painting, drawing, sculpture, clothing design, and creating nature trails in our forest. They all give that thrill. Tech pays better, though - so I work in tech to pay the bills, then spend the money on tools to get that creative thrill somewhere else.

Jcampuzano2 1y ago

This article is not a "I want to leave tech" article. It is an "I want to have more ownership of the nature of my work" article. Practically every recommendation is also a tech job, its just not "big tech" where you have very little real decision making power. Tech itself is not the issue here - tech being filled with high paying jobs where you effectively work on issues that directly damage humanity is the issue. And after you have a high paying job its hard to justify leaving it, and every other similarly paying job is basically the same thing in a different package.

benreesman 1y ago
This is the most important comment I've read in a while. It has become really easy to feel trapped in software as a trade even though I love working on software as much or more than ever in the details of the work. I'm fortunate that my current gig doesn't involve doing anything that I find directly objectionable in a Hippocratic Oath sense (though some might, its trading stuff which I long ago decided is about a 1.01 out of Meta on a scale of 1 to OpenAI). The thing is that the software business has discovered its Three Big Lies: - Everything is Exponential (Sigmoids are For The Small Thinkers) - Breaking The Law is Progress if You Do It With a Computer - Computer People Know What's Best Other industries that have become tentacled over the years have had similar Big Lies (High Finance has Price Movements are Gaussian Distributed for example, and Bailouts are The Business Cycle). I'm at the age both in life and career terms where its like, this could be a cyclic thing and these assholes are going to get thrown out soon, or it could be I came of age in an aberrant exceptionally good time, this is how it always ends up. What I do know is that that software is an effective tool for mitigating the damage of malware, excellent computers are cheap now, and so it might be possible to fund an effective resistance doing rewarding work for the greater good with frugality and some creativity about paying the bills, I'm still figuring out the details.
- catlover76 1y ago
  [dead]
- cjs_ac 1y ago
  Insightful comment. I think there's a dividing line in society between those who understand systems and those who don't. The systems people look at the non-systems people as stupid; the non-systems people look at the systems people as evil.

robertclaus 1y ago

It feels like this is missing the mid sized company that isn't looking to grow and IPO. There are plenty of companies that just have a product and sell it to make payroll. They're just overlooked in the hustle.

pydry 1y ago
these are usually worse, especially if IT is treated as a cost center and the SME is run by people with autocratic tendencies. half of the questions on /r/cscareerquestions are about how to deal with working in this type of company ("why does the boss always defer to his nephew who cant code his way out of a paper bag?") or how to get out ("where are all the jobs paying over $100k?").
OjotCewIo 1y ago
> company that isn't looking to grow I don't think such a thing exists (unfortunately). Show me a business leader that says, "oh we've been successful, we've got orders and new clients lined up, but no, I won't hire more workers, more managers, and turn our flat org structure into a hierarchy, because I want my employees to have a sustainable and fulfilling work experience, and because I want my current customers to enjoy the usual, stable service or product quality". Only a unicorn would not perceive saying "no" to growth as leaving money on the table.

bradlys 1y ago

Written by a European. Reality is - if you’re an American and got into tech and are working for well paying tech companies, you’re not leaving and there’s no escape unless you fatFIRE. This is why FIRE is so big among the Silicon Valley tech crowd. Everyone knows. What’s the alternative for an American tech worker (primarily the people who read HN) who wants to stay where they live, keep a similar quality of living, and not work in toxic faang-esque H1B factories? There ain’t one.

atemerev 1y ago
Emigration? It is really easy for Americans to move to Europe. If you are Russian, Pakistani or Kenian, that's another story.
- injidup 1y ago
  Honesty I don't think USA tech workers would fit with European workplace culture. Imagine some cali crypto bro refugee pulling out his Cheese wiz or bud light in a French startup's Canteen. There would be a riot and then dudes in tractors would be blocking the highways demanding "the government do something"
Muromec 1y ago
(Un)fortunately, changing lifestyle is a painful and necessary prerequisite for leaving the bubble.
teiferer 1y ago
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AnimalMuppet 1y ago
If by "keep a similar quality of living" you mean "keep FAANG-sized paychecks", there probably isn't an alternative. If you mean "keep upper-middle-class paychecks", well, there's more to "tech" than just web programming. For instance, embedded systems is pretty good. Yeah, they don't pay FAANG levels, and they never will. They typically aren't a "toxic faang-esque HIB factory", though.

gdbsjjdn 1y ago

If you want to leave tech you should save up for 4-5 years of expenses to accomodate for under-employment, downsize your lifestyle to fit a household income under 80k, and then reskill in another field. I have tried to move away incrementally from the tech industry by working less and consulting, and it is not effective. There's simply nothing else you can do that pays as well for so little effort. It draws you back in like a tarpit because there's always more work to do. Committing to a clean break and immersing yourself in a new field seems like the better approach.

OjotCewIo 1y ago
Assuming that you save 1/3rd of your monthly net income, and spend only 2/3rds of it on expenses -- which I believe is already beyond what most people can do --, and that you are already frugal (which means that you don't have easily cuttable expenses [*]), you'd need to save twice as long as you planned to live off of those savings. If you wanted a buffer for 4-5 years, you'd need to pinch every penny for 8-10 years, and do that -- presumably -- while you are in your thirties, and raising kids. This can work, but mostly as an exception, I think. [*] I don't consider expenses that improve health and lifestyle "cuttable" -- organic food, locally produced meat, food supplements / vitamins, therapy, dentist, gym / sports, etc. I've recently learned that even holiday trips (which are insanely expensive, assuming you are not from the US, to the point of being financially injustifiable) are crucial for mental and marital health.
- gdbsjjdn 1y ago
  If you don't consider any expenses "cuttable" you're not downsizing. Especially taking expensive vacations? I travel a couple times a year domestically by driving and it's very manageable.

senko 1y ago

This is "grass is greener" type article: > Working for a public institution This may vary from country to country, but in my part of the world, public institutions are mostly dysfunctional, political, nepotistic, filled with cronies and people with negative productivity. And then there's one bright eyed idealist who actually does most of the work until they realize they're being taken advantage of, learn their lesson and starts behaving the same (or leave for private sector). > Joining a tech co-operative ie. become a freelancer or start/join a consultancy; sure, but after a couple dozen projects, it starts feeling the same as a corpo job. > Joining a tech NGO Again, may vary from country to country. Here NGOs are incredibly political things and desperately dependent on continous outside funding (the two are interconnected). You'll switch office politics for NGO politics. > Working for a union or a party Politicians and union representatives are some of the last people I'd ever want to socialize with. > Becoming a mentor or a teacher That's nice, but can you live on that salary? > Becoming a techno-political hustler For an article that starts with one's quest to find a more meaningful job, this is about as far removed from it as "used car salesman that exclusively uses bitcoin payday loans financing". At the same time, some of the more promising alternatives that crop up at local IT watering holes are floor tiling, plumbing, roofing, ... All honest work, good pay, visible results, and zero bullshit.

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OjotCewIo 1y ago
Agree with your points about public institutions and NGOs. Where I live, having NGO projects on your CV could even work against you (in case you were looking for a government job, down the line). > floor tiling, plumbing, roofing, ... All honest work, good pay, visible results, and zero bullshit I'm not sure. First, you need to be good at it. "Leaving tech" does not necessarily imply "good at trades". Second, you need to be very flexible in the quality vs. delivery time tradeoff (and personally I find that really difficult). Third, I'm not keen on talking with clients directly. Fourth, even if there's a general contractor, representatives of the different trades always blame each other, when things go wrong, or the schedule slips.

jghn 1y ago

First thing to do is get used to a much lower salary. Mostly kidding but channeling how often I see sentiments online of people saying they want to leave tech and then balk at the salaries normal people have.

micromacrofoot 1y ago
that's the hard part for me, I'd have to change every aspect of my life because any other job would probably start me at 25% of what I make now sell my house, put my kids in a different school district, be terrified about health insurance if I fail I'd have to go back into tech and would have uprooted everything in a way that's probably irreversible
- bdangubic 1y ago
  I’ve heard this argument many times; some of those times it came out of my own mouth. the thing is… if you and your spouse get a 25% bump in salary right now, a year or so from now it is likely you’d write the exact same comment as this one above even though a year ago you were in the same boat and obviously managed beautifully without the extra 25%… :)
  - TeMPOraL 1y ago
    It's easier to move in one direction than the other :). People have goals, getting a bump in salary lets them achieve those goals faster; getting a 75% cut on the salary means undoing all that and then some. Not to mention, costs of everything also go up, and our bodies are not getting younger and healthier either. If you're to give up your current salary for the one you had 5 years ago, you wouldn't afford the kind of life you had 5 years ago.
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  - Everdred2dx 1y ago
    Not to discount your overall point, but you're comparing a 25% increase with a 75% decrease here. Not quite the same thing

haskellandchill 1y ago

tech to med school pipeline, don't recommend it but I'm happy

bradlys 1y ago
What age did you start med school? Probably not feasible for those of us who didn’t have stellar academic records. (Regardless of professional accomplishment)

apriljo 1y ago

To summarize the article, Problem: How to leave tech. Solution: Enter tech!

osigurdson 1y ago

>> the public sector offers more relaxed environments and more meaningful problems to work on The public sector may provide more relaxed environments but it isn't clear that you will work on more meaningful problems.

evantbyrne 1y ago
Public workers are more positively impactful to the operation of society than many engineers working in digital widget factories. Bureaucracy limits potential, for good reason, but doing something is still more than nothing.
- osigurdson 1y ago
  Except that the public sector workers are being paid for by the engineers working in the digital widget factories. So the core of the "positive" impact is coming from private industry. Maybe it is morally superior in the end to work at a digital widget factory so that others can chill and work in the public sector.

tootie 1y ago

Almost every complaint I see about working in tech is 90% applicable to any industry. The problem in every company is other people. Some are greedy, selfish, dishonest. Some mean well but market forces demand unsavory practices. You won't escape it by trading a keyboard for a hammer or a pastry bag or whatever. You have to either have a specific target in mind. Like you actually love doing some other thing and want it to be your career. Or, as the article lays out, just keep doing tech someplace more fulfilling. Having spent time in tech in both government and nonprofit space, I can tell you the organizations are not very different from corporate ones. Day-to-day frustrations are very similar. You have to just take heart in doing something constructive for the public good.

miika 1y ago

I’m thinking what I could offer for the world if there was no computers or even electricity. I don’t have too many ideas and this article didn’t help. To continue working without coding, while still making use of coding skills and experience, I suppose roles like CTO or technical project lead might be suitable?

throw10920 1y ago

The meme with all of the buzzwords around Shinji suggests that the author doesn't really understand that that stifing environment is due to bureaucracy rather than working in tech. You can be in a large non-tech company (or government agency, technical or not - source: I survived one) and have the same miserable experience. You can work in a small tech company and get very little of it. The idea that you'll escape by "Working for a public institution" is goofy.

OjotCewIo 1y ago
> The idea that you'll escape by "Working for a public institution" is goofy. I agree. Where I live, "public institution" is code for "infinite inefficiency and corruption".

ChrisArchitect 1y ago

Some related recent Asks: (related to the concept of the title anyways, not so much the body) Ask HN: Is anyone else just done with the industry? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44393304 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44393304 Ask HN: I don't want to work in software anymore. Where do I go? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43836353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43836353 Ask HN: Facing unemployment – what now? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44008554 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44008554 Ask HN: Decided I no longer want to be a SWE – what next? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44110944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44110944

hliyan 1y ago

One of the happiest periods of my life was when I was working for a non-profit tech company building software for humanitarian work (human rights documentation, labour law compliance, election monitoring etc), after working a full decade in capital markets trading systems. Half the salary for 2 years, did a number on my savings, but it recharged me enough to return to the industry, with expertise in a new tech stack. It was in fact during this period I became a regular reader/contributor to HN. I understand that this option may not be available to all. I suppose my point is that you may not actually need to leave the industry permanently. Just long enough for you to recharge and find a way to repel the BS without psychological trauma (and without causing psychological trauma to others).

WA 1y ago
How did you find out about the non-profit company and got into it?
- hliyan 1y ago
  Pure luck. A friend of mine was one of the founders. This was in 2013.
OjotCewIo 1y ago
Good for you! Alas, as you say, this is mostly pure luck. And not sustainable over the longer term, financially speaking.

spencerflem 1y ago

Not sure how much I vibe with the conclusions but the intro captures my feelings perfectly

jschveibinz 1y ago

Uncle J. here, sitting in my rocking chair... There are so many problems to solve. I always like to post these lists when an article like this is posted on HN and the discussion ensues about what feels good to work on. There are so many problems that need your help to solve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_global_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_global_issues My father always told me: "you will have a vocation, and an avocation. They are separate activities." What he was telling me is that I should find a job, and a hobby. And they should be separate. I believe that there has been a severe injustice done to students over the past 30-40 years by instructing them to find a job that is their passion. That's putting too much pressure on a person; and it’s largely unachievable. It's okay to make money doing one thing, and enjoy yourself by accomplishing something great doing another.

OjotCewIo 1y ago
> It's okay to make money doing one thing, and enjoy yourself by accomplishing something great doing another. Maybe. First, the thing done for money (or the way it is done) shouldn't at least be at odds with your identity (and/or work ethic). Second, if you consider how large a proportion of our waking lives are spent at work, you start questioning whether just "neutral" is good enough, for a job.

tomfucksdan 1y ago

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nyarlathotep_ 1y ago

Considering the scale and frequency of layoffs across the board and the difficulty of finding a new job for many, you could just...run out the clock and wait for the inevitable?

OjotCewIo 1y ago
Sitting on death row is psychologically devastating.

dixong 1y ago

Seems like the majority of arguments against the articles premise are the inability to sacrifice exorbitant living standards. I left big tech in 2022 and much happier living on a tiny fraction. It's called sacrifice. I personally don't understand why people need so much money. A family of 3 can easily live on $150k even in a HCOL area.

OjotCewIo 1y ago
> I personally don't understand why people need so much money - healthcare (where I live, we have public health care, i.e., my salary is taxed to oblivion, but if you want good for yourself and your family, you'll pay a second time, and seek out private practices / clinics) - housing crisis, with unpreditable and unreliable rental market: you really want your children to start their own lives in small apartments that are owned by the family. And in the opposite generational direction: at some point your parents (or in-laws) will start dying, and the widow(er)s may have to be moved to different towns, apartments, assisted living facilities. - healthcare#2: food supplements, therapy, gym, sports -- requires both a lot of money and a lot of time. No time for side jobs. - home maintenance, car maintenance, etc. In short, there's never enough money. If you don't spend your income all at once -- and you really should not spend it at once --, you will definitely spend it later, on valid things. I guess it depends on how you view the world. Trustworthy and reliable? Then less money is fine, and the "sacrifice" that you mention only seems to apply to "exorbitant living standards". But if you view the world as hostile, unfair, at best indifferent and uncaring, then money equals safety, and you'll never feel you have enough of it -- even though you could be a responsible and frugal person already.

mmarian 1y ago

Techno-political hustler sounds fun tbh. Sounds like you need to have a fundraising network though, which often means coming from a well-off background. A shame.

mgarfias 1y ago

I want to leave tech as well. Unfortunately I can't figure out how to replace my income (yet). I'm working on a VERY niche SaaS offering, that has some novel growth areas. But getting time to work on it is slow going. Maybe it will some day be enough to replace my income, and I can bail on the FTE thing.

lrvick 1y ago

Starting a security focused Co-op was the path that made me happy. I can make a living open sourcing everything I do and working on what I want. YMMV.

fud101 1y ago

This article is a version of selling shovels I didn't consider. Nice one.

zbentley 1y ago

Consider public service software/IT engineering. Contrary to popular belief, in the US there are state/federal government software jobs. They don’t pay as well as the private sector, but it’s only a few steps down, not “get used to earning 20% as much”. Is the bullshit rate in many of those jobs incredibly high? Absolutely. But can a talented generalist from the private sector make huge improvements for real people? You bet. So much of government IT is crippled by dated approaches and over-reliance on contractors (and the lack of knowledge of best practices that comes from very few folks transitioning from the private sector—those few steps down in salary are not a road often travelled). As a result, someone with talent and familiarity with how much better things can be (and a willingness to push on broken rules/processes) can have a huge impact. You’ll have to do a lot of “here is a prototype nobody asked for built in a way nobody here is currently allowed to build it”-type performing in the first year or two, but at the right government agency folks who do that get to deliver massive benefits to real people every day. There are enough sub components of government (agencies, sub-agencies, state, municipal) that you can easily find work you agree with. It’s frustrating to apply, but truly: once in the door, talented folks can achieve a huge amount.