9 ms·

I think a useful tactic to curb loss of expensive bikes would be to legally target the people who buy them, these are the people that cause the market to exist

by Jun8 14y ago

I think a useful tactic to curb loss of expensive bikes would be to legally target the people who buy them, these are the people that cause the market to exist and perpetuate the situation. My guess is that most of these people are not crooks, i.e. they are just young people who want to but can't afford a nice bike and they know exactly what they are buying. I don't understand anything about bikes so can't give an example there, but if a person would approach me to sell, say, a 2010 Prius for $5K, I just know that is a stolen car. If knowingly buying a stolen car carries even a small legal charge, most people wouldn't do it. Tangentially, and pardon my ignorance, I'm not a biker: I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one?

jiggy2011 14y ago
That's assuming that they are selling the bikes at a far lower price than the market rate. Wise crooks probably know to offer a realistic price. The prices for second hand bicycles are all over the place anyway. There's a significant number of people who will buy a reasonably expensive bike and keep it in the shed for years and then by the time they decide to get rid of it they have no idea what it's worth so will just sell it for below it's value.
enraged_camel 14y ago
How can you tell if a bike you are buying is stolen? It would be pretty easy for a bike thief to post an ad on Craigslist saying they are selling their used bike. >>Tangentially, and pardon my ignorance, I'm not a biker: I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one? It makes a huge difference. More expensive bikes are built from lighter and stronger materials (such as carbon fiber), are more aerodynamic and have better balance. Just to name a few of the benefits.
- Retric 14y ago
  I would argue it's often more about falling into the same trap as 'audiophiles' as it is about direct benefits. Few people notice the added weight from drinking 2lb of water but people spend hundreds of dollars shaving 1/10th of that from their bike.
  - herval 14y ago
    It does make a very considerable difference, if you're serious about your biking, though. Plus, more expensive bikes are not necessarily lighter - there are many variables involved on the price (wrist comfort, seating type, suspensions, frame stiffness/weight, numbers and quality of gears, etc) - many more than the usual 'audiophile' choosing range. But yeah, a lot of people buy expensive rides for the looks and have no idea what do do with them...
  - cloverich 14y ago
    To chime in - offroading with a mountain Bike - if I take a drop > ~5 feet or so, the tires on my (former) $500 dollar bike would Taco.So yeah, there's a diff, and its not always weight. Alas, my bike was targeted and stolen. :(
  - Johngibb 14y ago
    In my experience, it stops making a difference once you have to carry a 20 lb kryptonite chain to lock it. I just spent all that money on a light bike, and now it's 20 pounds heavier. I hate bike thieves. Just had my bike stolen last week in NYC
    - ahelwer 14y ago
      It's been said that all appropriately-paired combinations of bikes and locks weigh 50 lbs.
  - grogenaut 14y ago
    For me the price isn't about the weight, it's about me commuting in a city with huge hills, rain, and long flat stretches. My commute goes up and down several 300ft hills and across a long bridge (Seattle to Bellevue). So I end up riding a road bike with a large gear range and disc brakes. This isn't easy to setup, and my components cost more than the frame. When you commute every day 45 minutes each way, it also makes sense to spend some money on comfort (I mean that's 400 hours a year you are on the bike). Most people do it when they buy cars, it's the same think.
  - vacri 14y ago
- zurn 14y ago
  > More expensive bikes are built from lighter and stronger materials (such as carbon fiber) I would recommend anyone thinking carbon fiber makes stronger bikes to visit a topical image blog at http://www.bustedcarbon.com/ http://www.bustedcarbon.com/ :) The weight issue is addressed elsewhere in comments...
  - 001sky 14y ago
    That is a cool link. Carbon has tensile but not shear strength. As the evidence shows.
    - 001sky 14y ago
      In absolute terms, Tenstile (psi x1,000) for Ti Vs CFRP Tensile = 145 vs 215 Shear= 135 vs 1.5 <<that is why things go crack. Carbon Fiber Reinforced Polymer (CFRP) Composition: 70% carbon fibers in epoxy matrix Property Value in metric unit Value in US unit Density 1.6 10³ kg/m³ 101 lb/ft³ Tensile modulus (LW) 181 GPa 26300 ksi Tensile modulus (CW) 10.3 GPa 1500 ksi Tensile strength (LW) 1500 MPa 215000 psi Tensile strength (CW) 40 MPa 5800 psi Thermal expansion (20 ºC, LW) 0.0210-6 ºCˉ¹ 0.0110-6 in/(in ºF) Thermal expansion (20 ºC, CW) 22.510-6 ºCˉ¹ 12.510-6 in/(in* ºF) LW- Lengthwise direction, CW- Crosswise direction [1] http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=epoxy_matrix_composite_reinforced_by_70_carbon_fibers&DokuWiki=62d982a57ddac09b194d27c46bf89e90 http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=epoxy_matrix_co... [2] http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=titanium_near-alpha_alloy_ti-8al-1mo-1v http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=titanium_near-a.... These are directinally correct for raw materials; the actual alloys and engineered structures will take into account obvious characteristics of the material.
  - nl 14y ago
    I hate, hate, hate the anti-scientific view that busted carbon promotes. Carbon fiber's failure mode is different to metal - it breaks rather than bends. In most cases crashes that destroyed carbon frames would have also destroyed metal frames - but a frame bent out of alignment doesn't look as spectacular. It is possible to build a bike from carbon fiber that fails in surprising ways (eg, clamping it in a bike carrier). That's because CF allows more flexibility in building with it, not because it is inherently weak. If you want a strong carbon frame buy a cheap one. They typically use the same number of layer of fiber all over the frame (instead of trying to minimize weight in low strain parts) and they use plain woven fiber aligned randomly. That makes the bike heavier than a high-end frame, and not as strong for expected stresses (pedalling) as it could be for the same weight but it makes it more robust in the even on unexpected strains.
colinshark 14y ago
The difference between a nice "adult" bike and a cheap department store bike is night and day. The expensive bike won't rust. The expensive bike can be repaired when things break. The expensive bike is half the weight. If you are using your bike frequently, it's better in the long run to have decent hardware.
- zurn 14y ago
  Sure, the department store bikes are garbage, but you can get a perfectly good brand name basic city bike for well under $1000. Bikes mass is marginal compared to your body weight especially if you're average weight. A basic bike is 34 lbs and you are 175 lbs. And the weight only makes a big difference when climbing hills. You're much better off losing a few pounds of fat than spending a few grand to get 10 lbs off the bike and shaving 2% off the required muscle power per mile :)
  - moe 14y ago
    And the weight only makes a big difference when climbing hills For most people the weight makes the biggest difference when climbing stairs (with the bike on your shoulder).
    - zurn 14y ago
      Ah, heh. I can't imagine doing that... would get mud, snow and grease all over even if I could be bothered with all the wrangling.
  - mturmon 14y ago
    In general, about weight, I agree. One exception is rotating mass (i.e., wheels). A light, well-built wheel handles a lot better than a heavy one. No amount of personal weight loss is going to make up for that. Beyond mass, the behavior of shifters and brakes on nice bikes is much, much crisper and more predictable than on cheaper models. They also have better capacity for tuning (e.g., to eliminate chain rub, or accommodate a high-range sprocket set), and are more likely to stay in proper adjustment for longer. This makes riding a lot more fun -- the machine is very responsive to your wishes, and you forget it's there. You probably are aware of this, but I felt a need to mention some of the advantages of a nice bike.
seanalltogether 14y ago
How do you charge someone with knowingly buying a stolen product in a legal system where someone can plead the 5th? How do you prove they knew? Typically legal systems don't go after end consumers of stolen or counterfeit products, they go after suppliers, because they can prove that suppliers are actively breaking the law.
- furyg3 14y ago
  Knowingly purchasing stolen goods is already illegal in most places. The key is the "knowingly" part. You would have to have a ubiquitous BikeID system in a central registry of stolen bikes. It would have to be incredibly easy to check the status of a BikeID (web/email/phone/sms). It would have to have incredible traction. At that point if someone bought a bike which was tagged in the system as stolen, and didn't check/report it within 48 hours, they could be considered complicit in the theft. We're getting pretty close to this with cars. I'm pretty libertarian in my ideology, but at some point the barrier is so low to running a CarFax-esque check that even I wouldn't mind penalizing buyers who don't do due diligence. It is, of course, easier to justify with higher ticket items than with bikes or phones...
  - mseebach 14y ago
    Actually, purchasing stolen goods is illegal in most places, full stop. The reason is that it's practically impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt what somebody did or didn't know, and when. The BikeID idea is about as old as bike theft, but it's pretty difficult to enforce. If you care enough about not buying a stolen bike, the solution is simple: Ask for the original invoice. If not, you're not going to bother looking up the bike. You could sweep parking areas, but you'd only return the bikes to their owners, at considerable cost to operate - and buying a stolen bike is still free of risk of punishment.
    - kahirsch 14y ago
      > Actually, purchasing stolen goods is illegal in most places, full stop. In my state, the statute says "such person knowing or having reasonable grounds to believe the same to have been feloniously stolen or taken". I doubt any state makes receiving stolen goods in complete ignorance a crime. However, the stolen goods are generally recoverable by the original owner, whether or not the person receiving them purchased them in good faith.
wiredfool 14y ago
Yep. It's like the difference between a netbook and a MBP. Can you get work done on both? Yep. Is it Easier/Better/Faster on the MBP? Yep. The question is, if you see a couple year old Trek on ebay for ~800, with some mix of 105 and Bontrager parts, is it stolen or is it a good deal?
fffggg 14y ago
"I just know that is a stolen car" Which is why criminals do not charge half of its used value -- they charge 100% of the used value just like everyone else. You cannot tell a stolen bike on craigslist apart from a non-stolen bike based on the price alone. The problem of stolen cars is addressed through licensing and registration. Not to mention, bicycles do not have a reliable and standardized VIN system like cars do. The fact is, the hassle of creating and enforcing such a system probably outweighs the positive aspects of preventing bike crime.
- TallGuyShort 14y ago
  I lived in a town that required all bikes to be registered and licensed, and all sales of bikes to go through the local government. It was such a big pain that I would rather just live with the higher risk of theft and the lack of enforcement.
  - brown9-2 14y ago
    What town was this?
    - akgerber 14y ago
      Many towns have laws like this from the 1970s that are unenforced (except, perhaps, as an excuse to bother the people police don't like). San Diego just repealed theirs: http://www.bikesd.org/2012/08/02/city-of-san-diego-to-remove-bicycle-licensing-requirement/ http://www.bikesd.org/2012/08/02/city-of-san-diego-to-remove...
    - mullingitover 14y ago
      The LAPD was ticketing riders on large group rides a while back for not having their bikes registered. It was a misapplication of the law, since the law was supposed to protect cyclists from theft, not get them ticketed if they didn't have their stamp. The idea was that the bike shop registered your bike when you purchased it. The cyclists stormed city hall and complained loudly, and the police were forced to stop doing this.
- 14y ago
lamby 14y ago
> I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one They are significantly and astonishingly better if you do something that style of bike is designed to do - eg. ride 40km as efficiently as possible, go up mountains all day, sprint finishes, etc. They aren't 10 times better, but that's not how subjective value works.
lamebrain 14y ago
A couple years ago I moved, and I rented a bike while mine was in transit. I wish I never rented it, because riding it was glorious, and it cost $1500 retail. (It was a Kona bike, called "Rage" or "Fire" or something like that.) It's like retina displays -- you don't know what you're missing until you use it, and then after that, you always know what you're missing.
zurn 14y ago
> I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one? Sure, if you want a MTB for blazing offroad trails or a road bike for touring. For your regular 20 minute commute, a sub-$1000 city bike is pretty much the sweet spot (depending on your available disposable income of course).
herval 14y ago
> Tangentially, and pardon my ignorance, I'm not a biker: I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one? Yes, they're considerably better - the price is directly reflected on aspects such as durability and weight of the components (frame, gearing, wheels, etc). Keep in mind, though, that buying the most expensive bike around just to commute 10-20 miles to work won't be a good investment - you should go for a good quality one when you're serious about long distance training or hard core mountain biking, for instance (usually after you're already practicing whichever style you prefer - a lot of people invest in an expensive bike upfront and never really use it to its full capacity). (or assemble your own. It's fun, specially for hackers/geeks!)
dbecker 14y ago
>Tangentially, and pardon my ignorance, I'm not a biker: I can't >understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, >are these so much better than a $500 one? They are better. They aren't 5x better (as if this was even quantifiable)... but if you are passionate about biking and you spend a lot of time on your bike, it can seem worth it. I spend much more time on my bike than in my car... and I appreciate the improved ride of associated with an extra $1000 on a bike more than I'd appreciate the improvements from spending an extra $5000 on a car. So, it certainly seems reasonable to me.
juan_juarez 14y ago
> Tangentially, and pardon my ignorance, I'm not a biker: I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one? Think about one thing you're passionate about. There's going to be products that are good enough for the casual, every-day user and there's going to be premium goods, even if there's a decreasing price/performance ratio. Since we're on HN, I feel safe talking about computers. Compare the $1000 3.9GHz i7 from Intel and the $500 3.8GHz version. Do some people need the minor performance increase enough to pay for it? Sure. Enough to create a market? Nope. It's people wanting to buy things just to show they can pay for it.
- ericd 14y ago
  Well, given the amount I will use that computer over the 2 years I have it and the disruption to flow that processing pauses cause, a ~10% increase in performance might be worth the premium. I imagine there's similar logic for bikes. But you're right, sometimes people just want to show off.
  - bigiain 14y ago
    Wild handwavey ballpark estimate follows. Your 2 year timeframe for a computer - lets call that 500 days (assuming its for work, and rounding to 2significant digits). That's $1 per day "extra" for the slightly faster processor. Which is what, well under two minutes of most people reading here's hourly rate. If you use that computer for anything more processor bound than word processing, that apparently tiny speed bump of under 3% will probably _easily_ pay for it's $500 premium. Hell, I'd probably save $1 per day in time spent not waiting for chrome to open/render all the links I click from HN in a day on a slightly faster machine…
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      If you put it that way, I wonder how much it is worth a day to not read HN..
nl 14y ago
Tangentially, and pardon my ignorance, I'm not a biker: I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one? As many other answers say, yes, there is a difference. Here are some details (for 'racing' road bikes, which I know best): For around $400, if you buy well online you can get something with an aluminium frame, carbon fibre fork and moderately decent components (eg [1]). It'll probably weigh a bit under 30 pounds (13 kg). For around $700 you'll get a bike with similar specs from a major manufacturer and you can get it from a bike shop, where they will assemble it for you, make sure you get the right size etc. See [2][3] For around $1000 you can get a carbon fibre frame on your bike (online, with terrible components[4]) or bikes from major manufactures where the components start getting better (eg Shimano Sora 9 speed). These bikes should be between 20 and 25 pounds. See [5] At $1500 you get bikes from major manufactures that are suitable for racing (ie, Shimano 105 10 speed, eg [6]), or can get pretty good carbon fiber bikes online. You also start getting decent bikes from high end manufactures (Bianchi, Pinarello, BMC). Most of these bikes will weigh a bit more than 20 pounds (9 kg), but if you choose carefully you might get under that. Over $2000 you get carbon frames and Shimano's second to top component set, better wheels, and began getting under 20 pounds more often. High end only manufactures (Cervello, Ridley etc) are making their base level bikes. Around $5000 you start getting electronic shifting, or better aero frames, deep rims on your wheels. You can start considering custom made frames. Your bike should weigh well under 20 pounds, and you can probably get down to the UCI limit of 6kg. At $10,000 you are getting bike similar to what they ride in the Tour de France. You can get a power meter built into your crankset or wheels. The carbon frameset has been wind tunnel tested and is engineered so carefully that some parts of your frame only have a single layer of carbon, yet you still can't flex the frame at the bottom bracket. You probably have to add things like the power meter as ballast to make sure you are over the UCU weight limit. You can consider custom titanium[7] or trying to buy onto the speedvagen waiting list[8]. Over $10,000: McLaren + Specalized: http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/03/17/specialized-mclaren-venge-road-bike-collaboration-ultra-hot-sub-950g-aero-road-frame/ http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/03/17/specialized-mclaren-veng... (actually, to be fair there are plenty of ways to spend $10K+ on a road bike. This is just one). [1] http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/wellington3_IX.htm http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/wellington3_IX.h... [2] http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/defy.5/9014/48856/ http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/defy.5/9014/... [3] http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/sport/1_series/ http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/sport/1_series/ [4] http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/fuji/fuji_sl3.htm http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/fuji/fuji_sl3.htm [5] http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road/allez/allezsportcompact#specs http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road/allez/allezsport... [6] http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/sport/madone_2_series/madone_2_1/ http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/sport/madone_2_ser... [7] http://www.baumcycles.com/bikes/romano http://www.baumcycles.com/bikes/romano [8] http://www.adecadentexistence.com/?p=469 http://www.adecadentexistence.com/?p=469
sliverstorm 14y ago
I'm torn over policies of targeting buyers of stolen goods. It's easy to think everyone buying stolen goods knows exactly what they are getting into. Yet, not too long ago, I purchased a vehicle for a wholly reasonable price. I got the original pink slip. I got the keys. There were absolutely no signs of breaking & entering. Yet, I take it to the DMV to get registered, and what do you know- it's stolen property. I lost my shirt on that deal, and it would have made it a million times worse if I was suddenly facing criminal charges. Seriously, I hadn't even the slightest clue it was stolen- that is, until the police entered the DMV, looking straight at me. At that point there was only one thing that could be happening.
- ricardobeat 14y ago
  Shouldn't you have checked the car's plate and registration at the DMV before buying? That's standard procedure here.
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    Yes, you can meet at the DMV and transfer ownership and registration together, in person. But, that can be a colossal pain, especially when you're busy all week and have to do this sort of thing on the weekend, when the DMV is closed. These days I phone in to the police records department and ask them if the plate is stolen, but you just wouldn't think that would ever be necessary when you've got the keys, title, etc... Even the officers I spoke with were surprised & confused.
hatcravat 14y ago
The problem is many bikes are legitimately sold for well below MSRP. When a bicycle manufacturer sponsors a college team, they typically sell just-released models to team members for less than wholesale. The members will sell the bike the following year (when the frame is still considered a current model year) for the same as they paid and buy another new one.

by Jun8 14y ago

jiggy2011 14y ago

That's assuming that they are selling the bikes at a far lower price than the market rate. Wise crooks probably know to offer a realistic price. The prices for second hand bicycles are all over the place anyway. There's a significant number of people who will buy a reasonably expensive bike and keep it in the shed for years and then by the time they decide to get rid of it they have no idea what it's worth so will just sell it for below it's value.

enraged_camel 14y ago

How can you tell if a bike you are buying is stolen? It would be pretty easy for a bike thief to post an ad on Craigslist saying they are selling their used bike. >>Tangentially, and pardon my ignorance, I'm not a biker: I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one? It makes a huge difference. More expensive bikes are built from lighter and stronger materials (such as carbon fiber), are more aerodynamic and have better balance. Just to name a few of the benefits.

Retric 14y ago
I would argue it's often more about falling into the same trap as 'audiophiles' as it is about direct benefits. Few people notice the added weight from drinking 2lb of water but people spend hundreds of dollars shaving 1/10th of that from their bike.
- herval 14y ago
  It does make a very considerable difference, if you're serious about your biking, though. Plus, more expensive bikes are not necessarily lighter - there are many variables involved on the price (wrist comfort, seating type, suspensions, frame stiffness/weight, numbers and quality of gears, etc) - many more than the usual 'audiophile' choosing range. But yeah, a lot of people buy expensive rides for the looks and have no idea what do do with them...
- cloverich 14y ago
  To chime in - offroading with a mountain Bike - if I take a drop > ~5 feet or so, the tires on my (former) $500 dollar bike would Taco.So yeah, there's a diff, and its not always weight. Alas, my bike was targeted and stolen. :(
- Johngibb 14y ago
  In my experience, it stops making a difference once you have to carry a 20 lb kryptonite chain to lock it. I just spent all that money on a light bike, and now it's 20 pounds heavier. I hate bike thieves. Just had my bike stolen last week in NYC
  - ahelwer 14y ago
    It's been said that all appropriately-paired combinations of bikes and locks weigh 50 lbs.
- grogenaut 14y ago
  For me the price isn't about the weight, it's about me commuting in a city with huge hills, rain, and long flat stretches. My commute goes up and down several 300ft hills and across a long bridge (Seattle to Bellevue). So I end up riding a road bike with a large gear range and disc brakes. This isn't easy to setup, and my components cost more than the frame. When you commute every day 45 minutes each way, it also makes sense to spend some money on comfort (I mean that's 400 hours a year you are on the bike). Most people do it when they buy cars, it's the same think.
- vacri 14y ago
zurn 14y ago
> More expensive bikes are built from lighter and stronger materials (such as carbon fiber) I would recommend anyone thinking carbon fiber makes stronger bikes to visit a topical image blog at http://www.bustedcarbon.com/ http://www.bustedcarbon.com/ :) The weight issue is addressed elsewhere in comments...
- 001sky 14y ago
  That is a cool link. Carbon has tensile but not shear strength. As the evidence shows.
  - 001sky 14y ago
    In absolute terms, Tenstile (psi x1,000) for Ti Vs CFRP Tensile = 145 vs 215 Shear= 135 vs 1.5 <<that is why things go crack. Carbon Fiber Reinforced Polymer (CFRP) Composition: 70% carbon fibers in epoxy matrix Property Value in metric unit Value in US unit Density 1.6 10³ kg/m³ 101 lb/ft³ Tensile modulus (LW) 181 GPa 26300 ksi Tensile modulus (CW) 10.3 GPa 1500 ksi Tensile strength (LW) 1500 MPa 215000 psi Tensile strength (CW) 40 MPa 5800 psi Thermal expansion (20 ºC, LW) 0.0210-6 ºCˉ¹ 0.0110-6 in/(in ºF) Thermal expansion (20 ºC, CW) 22.510-6 ºCˉ¹ 12.510-6 in/(in* ºF) LW- Lengthwise direction, CW- Crosswise direction [1] http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=epoxy_matrix_composite_reinforced_by_70_carbon_fibers&DokuWiki=62d982a57ddac09b194d27c46bf89e90 http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=epoxy_matrix_co... [2] http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=titanium_near-alpha_alloy_ti-8al-1mo-1v http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=titanium_near-a.... These are directinally correct for raw materials; the actual alloys and engineered structures will take into account obvious characteristics of the material.
- nl 14y ago
  I hate, hate, hate the anti-scientific view that busted carbon promotes. Carbon fiber's failure mode is different to metal - it breaks rather than bends. In most cases crashes that destroyed carbon frames would have also destroyed metal frames - but a frame bent out of alignment doesn't look as spectacular. It is possible to build a bike from carbon fiber that fails in surprising ways (eg, clamping it in a bike carrier). That's because CF allows more flexibility in building with it, not because it is inherently weak. If you want a strong carbon frame buy a cheap one. They typically use the same number of layer of fiber all over the frame (instead of trying to minimize weight in low strain parts) and they use plain woven fiber aligned randomly. That makes the bike heavier than a high-end frame, and not as strong for expected stresses (pedalling) as it could be for the same weight but it makes it more robust in the even on unexpected strains.

colinshark 14y ago

The difference between a nice "adult" bike and a cheap department store bike is night and day. The expensive bike won't rust. The expensive bike can be repaired when things break. The expensive bike is half the weight. If you are using your bike frequently, it's better in the long run to have decent hardware.

zurn 14y ago
Sure, the department store bikes are garbage, but you can get a perfectly good brand name basic city bike for well under $1000. Bikes mass is marginal compared to your body weight especially if you're average weight. A basic bike is 34 lbs and you are 175 lbs. And the weight only makes a big difference when climbing hills. You're much better off losing a few pounds of fat than spending a few grand to get 10 lbs off the bike and shaving 2% off the required muscle power per mile :)
- moe 14y ago
  And the weight only makes a big difference when climbing hills For most people the weight makes the biggest difference when climbing stairs (with the bike on your shoulder).
  - zurn 14y ago
    Ah, heh. I can't imagine doing that... would get mud, snow and grease all over even if I could be bothered with all the wrangling.
- mturmon 14y ago
  In general, about weight, I agree. One exception is rotating mass (i.e., wheels). A light, well-built wheel handles a lot better than a heavy one. No amount of personal weight loss is going to make up for that. Beyond mass, the behavior of shifters and brakes on nice bikes is much, much crisper and more predictable than on cheaper models. They also have better capacity for tuning (e.g., to eliminate chain rub, or accommodate a high-range sprocket set), and are more likely to stay in proper adjustment for longer. This makes riding a lot more fun -- the machine is very responsive to your wishes, and you forget it's there. You probably are aware of this, but I felt a need to mention some of the advantages of a nice bike.

seanalltogether 14y ago

How do you charge someone with knowingly buying a stolen product in a legal system where someone can plead the 5th? How do you prove they knew? Typically legal systems don't go after end consumers of stolen or counterfeit products, they go after suppliers, because they can prove that suppliers are actively breaking the law.

furyg3 14y ago
Knowingly purchasing stolen goods is already illegal in most places. The key is the "knowingly" part. You would have to have a ubiquitous BikeID system in a central registry of stolen bikes. It would have to be incredibly easy to check the status of a BikeID (web/email/phone/sms). It would have to have incredible traction. At that point if someone bought a bike which was tagged in the system as stolen, and didn't check/report it within 48 hours, they could be considered complicit in the theft. We're getting pretty close to this with cars. I'm pretty libertarian in my ideology, but at some point the barrier is so low to running a CarFax-esque check that even I wouldn't mind penalizing buyers who don't do due diligence. It is, of course, easier to justify with higher ticket items than with bikes or phones...
- mseebach 14y ago
  Actually, purchasing stolen goods is illegal in most places, full stop. The reason is that it's practically impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt what somebody did or didn't know, and when. The BikeID idea is about as old as bike theft, but it's pretty difficult to enforce. If you care enough about not buying a stolen bike, the solution is simple: Ask for the original invoice. If not, you're not going to bother looking up the bike. You could sweep parking areas, but you'd only return the bikes to their owners, at considerable cost to operate - and buying a stolen bike is still free of risk of punishment.
  - kahirsch 14y ago
    > Actually, purchasing stolen goods is illegal in most places, full stop. In my state, the statute says "such person knowing or having reasonable grounds to believe the same to have been feloniously stolen or taken". I doubt any state makes receiving stolen goods in complete ignorance a crime. However, the stolen goods are generally recoverable by the original owner, whether or not the person receiving them purchased them in good faith.

wiredfool 14y ago

Yep. It's like the difference between a netbook and a MBP. Can you get work done on both? Yep. Is it Easier/Better/Faster on the MBP? Yep. The question is, if you see a couple year old Trek on ebay for ~800, with some mix of 105 and Bontrager parts, is it stolen or is it a good deal?

fffggg 14y ago

"I just know that is a stolen car" Which is why criminals do not charge half of its used value -- they charge 100% of the used value just like everyone else. You cannot tell a stolen bike on craigslist apart from a non-stolen bike based on the price alone. The problem of stolen cars is addressed through licensing and registration. Not to mention, bicycles do not have a reliable and standardized VIN system like cars do. The fact is, the hassle of creating and enforcing such a system probably outweighs the positive aspects of preventing bike crime.

TallGuyShort 14y ago
I lived in a town that required all bikes to be registered and licensed, and all sales of bikes to go through the local government. It was such a big pain that I would rather just live with the higher risk of theft and the lack of enforcement.
- brown9-2 14y ago
  What town was this?
  - akgerber 14y ago
    Many towns have laws like this from the 1970s that are unenforced (except, perhaps, as an excuse to bother the people police don't like). San Diego just repealed theirs: http://www.bikesd.org/2012/08/02/city-of-san-diego-to-remove-bicycle-licensing-requirement/ http://www.bikesd.org/2012/08/02/city-of-san-diego-to-remove...
  - mullingitover 14y ago
    The LAPD was ticketing riders on large group rides a while back for not having their bikes registered. It was a misapplication of the law, since the law was supposed to protect cyclists from theft, not get them ticketed if they didn't have their stamp. The idea was that the bike shop registered your bike when you purchased it. The cyclists stormed city hall and complained loudly, and the police were forced to stop doing this.
14y ago

lamby 14y ago

> I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one They are significantly and astonishingly better if you do something that style of bike is designed to do - eg. ride 40km as efficiently as possible, go up mountains all day, sprint finishes, etc. They aren't 10 times better, but that's not how subjective value works.

lamebrain 14y ago

A couple years ago I moved, and I rented a bike while mine was in transit. I wish I never rented it, because riding it was glorious, and it cost $1500 retail. (It was a Kona bike, called "Rage" or "Fire" or something like that.) It's like retina displays -- you don't know what you're missing until you use it, and then after that, you always know what you're missing.

zurn 14y ago

> I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one? Sure, if you want a MTB for blazing offroad trails or a road bike for touring. For your regular 20 minute commute, a sub-$1000 city bike is pretty much the sweet spot (depending on your available disposable income of course).

herval 14y ago

> Tangentially, and pardon my ignorance, I'm not a biker: I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one? Yes, they're considerably better - the price is directly reflected on aspects such as durability and weight of the components (frame, gearing, wheels, etc). Keep in mind, though, that buying the most expensive bike around just to commute 10-20 miles to work won't be a good investment - you should go for a good quality one when you're serious about long distance training or hard core mountain biking, for instance (usually after you're already practicing whichever style you prefer - a lot of people invest in an expensive bike upfront and never really use it to its full capacity). (or assemble your own. It's fun, specially for hackers/geeks!)

dbecker 14y ago

>Tangentially, and pardon my ignorance, I'm not a biker: I can't >understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, >are these so much better than a $500 one? They are better. They aren't 5x better (as if this was even quantifiable)... but if you are passionate about biking and you spend a lot of time on your bike, it can seem worth it. I spend much more time on my bike than in my car... and I appreciate the improved ride of associated with an extra $1000 on a bike more than I'd appreciate the improvements from spending an extra $5000 on a car. So, it certainly seems reasonable to me.

juan_juarez 14y ago

> Tangentially, and pardon my ignorance, I'm not a biker: I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one? Think about one thing you're passionate about. There's going to be products that are good enough for the casual, every-day user and there's going to be premium goods, even if there's a decreasing price/performance ratio. Since we're on HN, I feel safe talking about computers. Compare the $1000 3.9GHz i7 from Intel and the $500 3.8GHz version. Do some people need the minor performance increase enough to pay for it? Sure. Enough to create a market? Nope. It's people wanting to buy things just to show they can pay for it.

ericd 14y ago
Well, given the amount I will use that computer over the 2 years I have it and the disruption to flow that processing pauses cause, a ~10% increase in performance might be worth the premium. I imagine there's similar logic for bikes. But you're right, sometimes people just want to show off.
- bigiain 14y ago
  Wild handwavey ballpark estimate follows. Your 2 year timeframe for a computer - lets call that 500 days (assuming its for work, and rounding to 2significant digits). That's $1 per day "extra" for the slightly faster processor. Which is what, well under two minutes of most people reading here's hourly rate. If you use that computer for anything more processor bound than word processing, that apparently tiny speed bump of under 3% will probably _easily_ pay for it's $500 premium. Hell, I'd probably save $1 per day in time spent not waiting for chrome to open/render all the links I click from HN in a day on a slightly faster machine…
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    If you put it that way, I wonder how much it is worth a day to not read HN..

nl 14y ago

Tangentially, and pardon my ignorance, I'm not a biker: I can't understand people who shell out thousands of dollars for a bike, are these so much better than a $500 one? As many other answers say, yes, there is a difference. Here are some details (for 'racing' road bikes, which I know best): For around $400, if you buy well online you can get something with an aluminium frame, carbon fibre fork and moderately decent components (eg [1]). It'll probably weigh a bit under 30 pounds (13 kg). For around $700 you'll get a bike with similar specs from a major manufacturer and you can get it from a bike shop, where they will assemble it for you, make sure you get the right size etc. See [2][3] For around $1000 you can get a carbon fibre frame on your bike (online, with terrible components[4]) or bikes from major manufactures where the components start getting better (eg Shimano Sora 9 speed). These bikes should be between 20 and 25 pounds. See [5] At $1500 you get bikes from major manufactures that are suitable for racing (ie, Shimano 105 10 speed, eg [6]), or can get pretty good carbon fiber bikes online. You also start getting decent bikes from high end manufactures (Bianchi, Pinarello, BMC). Most of these bikes will weigh a bit more than 20 pounds (9 kg), but if you choose carefully you might get under that. Over $2000 you get carbon frames and Shimano's second to top component set, better wheels, and began getting under 20 pounds more often. High end only manufactures (Cervello, Ridley etc) are making their base level bikes. Around $5000 you start getting electronic shifting, or better aero frames, deep rims on your wheels. You can start considering custom made frames. Your bike should weigh well under 20 pounds, and you can probably get down to the UCI limit of 6kg. At $10,000 you are getting bike similar to what they ride in the Tour de France. You can get a power meter built into your crankset or wheels. The carbon frameset has been wind tunnel tested and is engineered so carefully that some parts of your frame only have a single layer of carbon, yet you still can't flex the frame at the bottom bracket. You probably have to add things like the power meter as ballast to make sure you are over the UCU weight limit. You can consider custom titanium[7] or trying to buy onto the speedvagen waiting list[8]. Over $10,000: McLaren + Specalized: http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/03/17/specialized-mclaren-venge-road-bike-collaboration-ultra-hot-sub-950g-aero-road-frame/ http://www.bikerumor.com/2011/03/17/specialized-mclaren-veng... (actually, to be fair there are plenty of ways to spend $10K+ on a road bike. This is just one). [1] http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/wellington3_IX.htm http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/wellington3_IX.h... [2] http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/defy.5/9014/48856/ http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/defy.5/9014/... [3] http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/sport/1_series/ http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/sport/1_series/ [4] http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/fuji/fuji_sl3.htm http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/fuji/fuji_sl3.htm [5] http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road/allez/allezsportcompact#specs http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/road/allez/allezsport... [6] http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/sport/madone_2_series/madone_2_1/ http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/sport/madone_2_ser... [7] http://www.baumcycles.com/bikes/romano http://www.baumcycles.com/bikes/romano [8] http://www.adecadentexistence.com/?p=469 http://www.adecadentexistence.com/?p=469

sliverstorm 14y ago

I'm torn over policies of targeting buyers of stolen goods. It's easy to think everyone buying stolen goods knows exactly what they are getting into. Yet, not too long ago, I purchased a vehicle for a wholly reasonable price. I got the original pink slip. I got the keys. There were absolutely no signs of breaking & entering. Yet, I take it to the DMV to get registered, and what do you know- it's stolen property. I lost my shirt on that deal, and it would have made it a million times worse if I was suddenly facing criminal charges. Seriously, I hadn't even the slightest clue it was stolen- that is, until the police entered the DMV, looking straight at me. At that point there was only one thing that could be happening.

ricardobeat 14y ago
Shouldn't you have checked the car's plate and registration at the DMV before buying? That's standard procedure here.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  Yes, you can meet at the DMV and transfer ownership and registration together, in person. But, that can be a colossal pain, especially when you're busy all week and have to do this sort of thing on the weekend, when the DMV is closed. These days I phone in to the police records department and ask them if the plate is stolen, but you just wouldn't think that would ever be necessary when you've got the keys, title, etc... Even the officers I spoke with were surprised & confused.

hatcravat 14y ago

The problem is many bikes are legitimately sold for well below MSRP. When a bicycle manufacturer sponsors a college team, they typically sell just-released models to team members for less than wholesale. The members will sell the bike the following year (when the frame is still considered a current model year) for the same as they paid and buy another new one.