5 ms·

N-Back – A Minimal, Adaptive Dual N-Back Game for Brain Training

91 points by gregzeng95 1y ago

gregzeng95 1y ago
Hi HN, I built N-Back.net, a lightweight and responsive Dual N-Back task for working memory training. I was frustrated by the clunky UI and heavy design of most existing n-back tools, so I made something clean, fast, and distraction-free. No login, no ads, no tracking – just cognitive training in your browser. Key features: • Dual mode: visual + auditory • Adaptive difficulty: level up as you improve, drop down if needed • Dark mode and keyboard-only mode • Clearly differentiated letter sounds, carefully selected to avoid confusion • Performance tracker (WIP: I’m working on streaks and detailed history) • Mobile-friendly (works well on phones & tablets) I’m planning to add: • Custom training modes (single-modality, color, etc.) • User-defined N range • Optional accounts for progress saving (but always optional) Would love your feedback on: • UX flow and performance • Cognitive challenge balance • What would make you come back and use it regularly? Site: https://n-back.net https://n-back.net Thanks for checking it out!
- fouc 1y ago
  "do nothing" is too slow, need another key to hit to skip. I would expect a final reaction time of under 100-200ms ideally?
  - cellularmitosis 1y ago
    Yes, I would also remove the automatic progression entirely. This should be driven by user input only.
    - kqr 1y ago
      I think it's part of the test to have to do it quickly.
      - cellularmitosis 1y ago
        Sorry, I meant I want to be able to do it faster. I don't want to be held up by an automatic progression.
- louky 1y ago
  the buttons jumping up and down when correct or incorrect is jarring on my smaller screen, forcing a constant space there or moving the message would be a smoother UX, in my opinion.
  - euph0ria 1y ago
    Agreed, came here to say the same
  - gregzeng95 1y ago
    Thanks for your suggestion! I am fixing it soon
- BiraIgnacio 1y ago
  This is pretty great, thank you! I didn't know about these types of tasks (N-Back) and this was a nice introduction to it.
indolering 1y ago
Ahh, "brain training" - games you play instead of getting better at value added tasks. This shit doesn't generalize and the opportunity cost results in making you dumber, not smarter.
- kqr 1y ago
  From https://gwern.net/dnb-faq https://gwern.net/dnb-faq: > Performance on dual n-back has complicated correlations with performance on other tests of working memory or IQ, so it’s not clear what it is tapping into. (And the link between WM and performance on IQ tests has been disputed; high WM as measured by OSPAN does not correlate well with performance on hard Raven’s questions and the validity of single tests of WM training has been questioned .) > Unfortunately, in general, IQ/g and memory don’t seem to be trainable. Many apparent effects are swamped by exercise or nutrition or by simple practice. And when practice does result in gains on tasks or expensive games, said benefits often do not transfer . > Have I seen any benefits yet? Not really. Thus far it’s like meditation: I haven’t seen any specific improvements, but it’s been interesting just to explore concentration - I’ve learned that my ability to focus is much less than I thought it was! It does however seem like maybe dual n-back trains concentration and focus and willpower? > WM training helps alcoholics reduce their consumption and increases patience in recovering stimulant addicts (cocaine & methamphetamine). WM training has been shown to help children with ADHD and also preschoolers without ADHD; Lucas found behavior improvements at a summer camp.
  - gwd 1y ago
    But to GP's point: > To those whose time is limited: you may wish to stop reading here. If you seek to improve your life, and want the greatest ‘bang for the buck’, you are well-advised to look elsewhere. > Meditation, for example, is easier, faster, and ultra-portable. Typing training will directly improve your facility with a computer, a valuable skill for this modern world. Spaced repetition memorization techniques offer unparalleled advantages to students. [Lots more.] And all of these can start paying off immediately. > DNB, on the other hand, requires a minimum of 15 hours before one can expect genuine somatic improvements. The task itself is unproven - the Jaeggi studies are suggestive, not definitive.
visiondude 1y ago
It’s hard to tell when a turn starts if the tile stays on the same square. Could you possibly add a quick fade animation to the tile?
- gregzeng95 1y ago
  Thanks. I am adding this animation soon!
alfanick 1y ago
" Works on All Devices" statement doesn't seem to be true - I cannot press "space key" on my iPad (Safari).
kqr 1y ago
My personal experience with n-back mainly revolves around discovering the large variation in my ability to focus. Practisibg does get me better at the n-back task (not anything else as far as I can tell) but daily form determines results to a large degree. This effect seems to transfer somewhat: on weeks I'm overall worse at focusing on n-back I appear to also produce fewer commits. But what determines this daily form I don't know. I suspect sleep, stress, and exercise has something to do with it.
doubledamio 1y ago
This is very nice! But I don’t quite get how 70% is considered good performance — I managed to outperform that by literally doing nothing: Game Complete! Accuracy: 78.6% Correct Responses: 11 / 14 Average Reaction Time: 0 ms
- torbid 1y ago
  Yes, though 70% is a normal cut-off, I think most versions more heavily bias the placement towards 1/2 in the past square instead of the 1/9th of real chance. Without the bias it is simpler to always guess no.
Probiotic6081 1y ago
[dead]
NooneAtAll3 1y ago
"Working Memory Test" link returns 404
- gregzeng95 1y ago
  Sry, i am fixing it. I vibe-coded this website so there might be some bugs :<
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
RBerenguel 1y ago
I also wrote a minimal version for me, https://mostlymaths.net/nb/ https://mostlymaths.net/nb/ Only works well on mobile portrait though, I designed it especifically for my phone. Don't use it much though.
creature_x 1y ago
I've been using the n-back protocol for over a year and it's definitely improved my cognitive abilities. I don't know if my IQ has increased, but on days where I use this protocol(20-25 minutes) I see a marked improvement in the clarity and vibrancy of my thoughts- put another way this protocol's biggest benefit is it's effectiveness in clearing the mental fog in my head. I've tried experimenting with other protocols(solving crossword/chess puzzles, meditation,etc..)but they were not nearly as effective as n-back. I've actually built my own variation of n-back(triple n-back), where you're tested on the colour of the stimulus in addition to the sound and position-so it's much more cognitively demanding. If you're interested, you can check it out here: https://mind-workout.pages.dev https://mind-workout.pages.dev
- Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 1y ago
  How are you sure that the perceived improvement is due to the n-back and not that you only do n-back on days with abnormally good cognition? Like if you slept very little you obviously wouldn't not perform well nor do the n-back.
  - creature_x 1y ago
    Tbh I use the dual n-back protocol most vigorously on days where I feel cognitively sluggish as it's benefits are most apparent to me then.
SubiculumCode 1y ago
Generalization beyond n-back tasks had not been established, at least at the last time I looked into the field, maybe 8 years ago. There was always the hope that tasks that focused on specific core cognitive processes would lead to broad cognitive improvements, but I am not too confident about it. One problem in this field has been weak control conditions..e.g. no train conditions. I often thought that a cardio control conditions would be useful. I'd almost guarantee that for most people, 60 minutes a week jogging would lead to better cognitive improvements than 60 minutes of n-back.
saulSaul1998zx 1y ago
6451937099
InkCanon 1y ago
My own experience with Dual N-Back 1) I did it for a month. Probably some improvement, although I did not have any specific test done. Probably the most tangible use is really feeling how working memory (and losing it) is like and having better control. In the same way you might suddenly realize how breathing is and controlling it after learning meditation. 2) The study specified dual N back imposes a pretty demanding regiment. It's 12 sessions daily, consecutively for ~month. It takes about 20 minutes each day of intense focus. 3) There's naturally going to be a lot of survivorship bias in reviews. But you could argue it doesn't make your intelligence worse, so there's only net upside.

91 points by gregzeng95 1y ago

Hi HN, I built N-Back.net, a lightweight and responsive Dual N-Back task for working memory training. I was frustrated by the clunky UI and heavy design of most existing n-back tools, so I made something clean, fast, and distraction-free. No login, no ads, no tracking – just cognitive training in your browser. Key features: • Dual mode: visual + auditory • Adaptive difficulty: level up as you improve, drop down if needed • Dark mode and keyboard-only mode • Clearly differentiated letter sounds, carefully selected to avoid confusion • Performance tracker (WIP: I’m working on streaks and detailed history) • Mobile-friendly (works well on phones & tablets) I’m planning to add: • Custom training modes (single-modality, color, etc.) • User-defined N range • Optional accounts for progress saving (but always optional) Would love your feedback on: • UX flow and performance • Cognitive challenge balance • What would make you come back and use it regularly? Site: https://n-back.net https://n-back.net Thanks for checking it out!

fouc 1y ago
"do nothing" is too slow, need another key to hit to skip. I would expect a final reaction time of under 100-200ms ideally?
- cellularmitosis 1y ago
  Yes, I would also remove the automatic progression entirely. This should be driven by user input only.
  - kqr 1y ago
    I think it's part of the test to have to do it quickly.
    - cellularmitosis 1y ago
      Sorry, I meant I want to be able to do it faster. I don't want to be held up by an automatic progression.
louky 1y ago
the buttons jumping up and down when correct or incorrect is jarring on my smaller screen, forcing a constant space there or moving the message would be a smoother UX, in my opinion.
- euph0ria 1y ago
  Agreed, came here to say the same
- gregzeng95 1y ago
  Thanks for your suggestion! I am fixing it soon
BiraIgnacio 1y ago
This is pretty great, thank you! I didn't know about these types of tasks (N-Back) and this was a nice introduction to it.

indolering 1y ago

Ahh, "brain training" - games you play instead of getting better at value added tasks. This shit doesn't generalize and the opportunity cost results in making you dumber, not smarter.

kqr 1y ago
From https://gwern.net/dnb-faq https://gwern.net/dnb-faq: > Performance on dual n-back has complicated correlations with performance on other tests of working memory or IQ, so it’s not clear what it is tapping into. (And the link between WM and performance on IQ tests has been disputed; high WM as measured by OSPAN does not correlate well with performance on hard Raven’s questions and the validity of single tests of WM training has been questioned .) > Unfortunately, in general, IQ/g and memory don’t seem to be trainable. Many apparent effects are swamped by exercise or nutrition or by simple practice. And when practice does result in gains on tasks or expensive games, said benefits often do not transfer . > Have I seen any benefits yet? Not really. Thus far it’s like meditation: I haven’t seen any specific improvements, but it’s been interesting just to explore concentration - I’ve learned that my ability to focus is much less than I thought it was! It does however seem like maybe dual n-back trains concentration and focus and willpower? > WM training helps alcoholics reduce their consumption and increases patience in recovering stimulant addicts (cocaine & methamphetamine). WM training has been shown to help children with ADHD and also preschoolers without ADHD; Lucas found behavior improvements at a summer camp.
- gwd 1y ago
  But to GP's point: > To those whose time is limited: you may wish to stop reading here. If you seek to improve your life, and want the greatest ‘bang for the buck’, you are well-advised to look elsewhere. > Meditation, for example, is easier, faster, and ultra-portable. Typing training will directly improve your facility with a computer, a valuable skill for this modern world. Spaced repetition memorization techniques offer unparalleled advantages to students. [Lots more.] And all of these can start paying off immediately. > DNB, on the other hand, requires a minimum of 15 hours before one can expect genuine somatic improvements. The task itself is unproven - the Jaeggi studies are suggestive, not definitive.

visiondude 1y ago

It’s hard to tell when a turn starts if the tile stays on the same square. Could you possibly add a quick fade animation to the tile?

gregzeng95 1y ago
Thanks. I am adding this animation soon!

alfanick 1y ago

" Works on All Devices" statement doesn't seem to be true - I cannot press "space key" on my iPad (Safari).

kqr 1y ago

My personal experience with n-back mainly revolves around discovering the large variation in my ability to focus. Practisibg does get me better at the n-back task (not anything else as far as I can tell) but daily form determines results to a large degree. This effect seems to transfer somewhat: on weeks I'm overall worse at focusing on n-back I appear to also produce fewer commits. But what determines this daily form I don't know. I suspect sleep, stress, and exercise has something to do with it.

doubledamio 1y ago

This is very nice! But I don’t quite get how 70% is considered good performance — I managed to outperform that by literally doing nothing: Game Complete! Accuracy: 78.6% Correct Responses: 11 / 14 Average Reaction Time: 0 ms

torbid 1y ago
Yes, though 70% is a normal cut-off, I think most versions more heavily bias the placement towards 1/2 in the past square instead of the 1/9th of real chance. Without the bias it is simpler to always guess no.

Probiotic6081 1y ago

[dead]

NooneAtAll3 1y ago

"Working Memory Test" link returns 404

gregzeng95 1y ago
Sry, i am fixing it. I vibe-coded this website so there might be some bugs :<

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

RBerenguel 1y ago

I also wrote a minimal version for me, https://mostlymaths.net/nb/ https://mostlymaths.net/nb/ Only works well on mobile portrait though, I designed it especifically for my phone. Don't use it much though.

creature_x 1y ago

I've been using the n-back protocol for over a year and it's definitely improved my cognitive abilities. I don't know if my IQ has increased, but on days where I use this protocol(20-25 minutes) I see a marked improvement in the clarity and vibrancy of my thoughts- put another way this protocol's biggest benefit is it's effectiveness in clearing the mental fog in my head. I've tried experimenting with other protocols(solving crossword/chess puzzles, meditation,etc..)but they were not nearly as effective as n-back. I've actually built my own variation of n-back(triple n-back), where you're tested on the colour of the stimulus in addition to the sound and position-so it's much more cognitively demanding. If you're interested, you can check it out here: https://mind-workout.pages.dev https://mind-workout.pages.dev

Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 1y ago
How are you sure that the perceived improvement is due to the n-back and not that you only do n-back on days with abnormally good cognition? Like if you slept very little you obviously wouldn't not perform well nor do the n-back.
- creature_x 1y ago
  Tbh I use the dual n-back protocol most vigorously on days where I feel cognitively sluggish as it's benefits are most apparent to me then.

SubiculumCode 1y ago

Generalization beyond n-back tasks had not been established, at least at the last time I looked into the field, maybe 8 years ago. There was always the hope that tasks that focused on specific core cognitive processes would lead to broad cognitive improvements, but I am not too confident about it. One problem in this field has been weak control conditions..e.g. no train conditions. I often thought that a cardio control conditions would be useful. I'd almost guarantee that for most people, 60 minutes a week jogging would lead to better cognitive improvements than 60 minutes of n-back.

saulSaul1998zx 1y ago

6451937099

InkCanon 1y ago

My own experience with Dual N-Back 1) I did it for a month. Probably some improvement, although I did not have any specific test done. Probably the most tangible use is really feeling how working memory (and losing it) is like and having better control. In the same way you might suddenly realize how breathing is and controlling it after learning meditation. 2) The study specified dual N back imposes a pretty demanding regiment. It's 12 sessions daily, consecutively for ~month. It takes about 20 minutes each day of intense focus. 3) There's naturally going to be a lot of survivorship bias in reviews. But you could argue it doesn't make your intelligence worse, so there's only net upside.