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I couldn't disagree more. Their "bad" example: > To download W3C's editor/browser Amaya, _click here_. Is extraordinarily clear. I'll click the link and it wi

I couldn't disagree more. Their "bad" example: > To download W3C's editor/browser Amaya, _click here_. Is extraordinarily clear. I'll click the link and it will either download directly, or it will be a download page. In contrast: > Get _Amaya_! That suggests a link to the Amaya website, not a download page. That's not effective for a download. Similarly: > Tell me more about _Amaya_: W3C's free editor/browser that lets you create _HTML_, _SVG_, and _MathML_ documents. This is terrible. It's not about downloading, and "tell me more" is the command, but not linked! For all I know, the "Amaya" link goes to a corporate landing page, not the "tell me more" information I actually need. The conventional uses on the web are totally fine: > To download W3C's editor/browser Amaya, _click here_. > _Download Amaya_, the W3C's editor/browser. The idea that links shouldn't be verbs seems very silly to me. Links should absolutely be verbs, when they involve an action like downloading or finding out more. Obviously that's different from "reference" links like in Wikipedia, where you're finding more about a topic. And "click here" makes it exceptionally clear that a link isn't merely a reference link, but an action link. When I see: > Get _Amaya_! That... doesn't tell me how to get Amaya. That tells me "Amaya" is a reference link, not a download link.

kqr 1y ago
I strongly dislike "click here" links because when I'm looking for a link, I want to read only the link-formatted words on a page to find the link I'm interested in. "Download Amaya" would be a great link. Just "Amaya" (unless leading to a page with information about Amaya, I suppose) or "click here" are not.
- a3w 1y ago
  I often want a second source to first check if that is trustworthy: copy paste amaya while having to not accidentally click it is annoying, since often linebreaks and multiword names or company+product splits occur. Selecting and reading text should be easy. Navigating HTML should be wanted, not accidental. Therefore, the ``click here'' works best for me. PS - "_Get Amaya_" should start a file transfer. - "Get _amaya_ over there!" sounds like "okay next site will be info dump before actual download", which is acceptable to gather trust like brand or imprint recognition over there instead of googling now.
  - crtasm 1y ago
    Ideally browsers would have a shortcut to enter a text selection mode - this would also fix the annoyance of sites disabling text selection on certain elements. The Newpipe app on Android has such a mode for Youtube descriptions.
    - nayuki 1y ago
      > Ideally browsers would have a shortcut to enter a text selection mode They do - Firefox has the option "Search for text when you start typing". I have it enabled for decades.
- jkestner 1y ago
  Scannability is one of the reasons my formula is to link a complete descriptive phrase, like “Read more about hrefs,” or “take a survey on meeting times.” Links can be long, and probably doesn’t hurt SEO.
nulbyte 1y ago
Use a screen reader. Tab through the links. All you hear is, "click here." That's not helpful. Build a search engine. What information does "click here" offer your index? I agree with you that verbs don't seem all that problematic. Except when the verb is click and the object is here. I can stomach a link whose text is "Click Here to download Amaya," but if the link is literally just the two words, "click here," it is indistinguishable from others in many different contexts.
- xanrah 1y ago
  I'm sorry, should we design websites around SEO, or should search engines just use context properly?
  - echelon 1y ago
    Search engines and websites are going to be subsumed by LLMs, so it's not like this argument matters anymore.
    - bigbuppo 1y ago
      The general consensus is that the dislike of AI is so strong, that a large chunk of the population will disregard something if they even think it is generated by AI. Also, the LLMs need a continuous feed of new, original material to ingest or they'll be all thumbs. While the long-running trend of SEO stuffing from low-value content farms has polluted search results for years now, Google didn't really care about fixing that problem because there's a perverse incentive to generate more ad revenue by making the first page results usesless. Who cares about doing the right thing? Daddy's got to get his quarterly numbers up. I should also note that those content farms were also early adopters of genAI as we know it today. Infinite growth isn't a thing. Every cancer eventually kills its host.
      - bee_rider 1y ago
        Are you sure that’s the general consensus about AI? HN has a very intense relationship with this stuff, because we have hardcore boosters and hardcore skeptics. Among people I meet offline the feelings seem a lot weaker in either direction.
quietbritishjim 1y ago
> > Get _Amaya_! > That suggests a link to the Amaya website, not a download page. That's not effective for a download. In all their examples, the link is to the homepage of the Amaya website, not some download page (never mind the actual download). It seems their message is watered down quite a bit by conflating the issue around "click here", which as other comments have said is an accessibility issue, with whether the text accurately reflects the target.
turboponyy 1y ago
Yea, the examples are wrong, and I'd interpret them the same way. The principle is something I agree with and try to abide by, though.
layer8 1y ago
I mostly agree. One terminological difficulty is that, depending on the website, most users don’t “click” anymore, but “tap”, so something like “see here” could be more universal.
- xp84 1y ago
  Am I the only one who is amused by seeing UIs fuss about using “tap” vs “click”? Is there anyone who has ever gotten confused and started looking for a mouse to plug into their phone because something said “click the X button” instead of “tap” it?
  - loloquwowndueo 1y ago
    I’m still looking for a keyboard with an “Any” key. “Press Any Key” is very difficult without.
  - Spooky23 1y ago
    I sit near to one of these teams at work. They are very earnest and lovely, but torture themselves at great length over this stuff. I find it funny but I will say that passion often produces amazing results.
  - layer8 1y ago
    No, but for young people who only ever used a smartphone or tablet, it might be relatively unfamiliar terminology, and even when they do know what it means, may seem misplaced for how they use technology. As an analogy, consider how you would feel if the instruction manual of your microwave oven (or other physical appliance) would instruct you to "click" its buttons. It's not that you wouldn't understand what to do or that you'd be looking for a mouse port, it's that the word wouldn't be the right one for the circumstance. Incidentally, as a keyboard user I sometimes feel that way when there are instructions to "click" some UI button, but I will press the appropriate keyboard shortcut instead.
  - cellularmitosis 1y ago
    This sort of pedantic need for correctness at the cost of clarity seems to also crop up as businesses become increasingly corporate and expand their offerings. “The best tires” becomes “the best vehicular solutions”
sgustard 1y ago
The early web was full of these links. Over time more actions became buttons with direct labels. This replaced clearly bad link patterns like: - To cancel this purchase [click here]. - To complete this purchase [click here].
1317 1y ago
I like "_To download W3C's editor/browser Amaya, click here_."
1-more 1y ago
"click here" makes sense in that context, but links can be viewed in the screen reader rotor, where they just show up as a list of links out of context. aria-describedby can help out, but if you just make the text inside the link better then you can avoid having to do that. I do agree with you about verbs.
anotheryou 1y ago
Agreed. I'd suggest: _Download Amaya here_, W3C's editor/browser or W3C's editor/browser: _Download Amaya here_
eadmund 1y ago
It’s not really about clarity, or even about accessibility (although both of those are great!): it’s about what a Web page is. A Web page is a document which can link to other documents. > Links should absolutely be verbs No, links imply a verb: ‘get.’ Buttons imply another verb: ‘post.’ It’d be awesome if there were ways in HTML to indicate other verbs, such as put and delete. > > Get _Amaya_! > That... doesn't tell me how to get Amaya. No, it doesn’t: it is a document calling its reader to action. That’s something a document does: it tells a reader how to do something, or calls the reader to do something. Clicking is just an artifact of a particular technology at a particular point in time (heck, I imagine most people nowadays don’t click, because they are using smartphones — they tap instead).
- iLoveOncall 1y ago
  Yes and we all know that websites are not built to be consumed by humans, so this argument makes perfect sense.
_ZeD_ 1y ago
You don't get hyperlinks in a document-centric approach... You think of them as action, they're not. Actions are for applications. You are reading a document. They are metadata. Think of them like "footnootes" of a paragraph, or references. Remember, you're reading a document, not using an application.
- Diggsey 1y ago
  Documents don't contain calls to action like "Download X" or "Tell me more about Y", so your argument falls down in relation to the examples presented by W3C.
- dalmo3 1y ago
  'Member the 80s?
- chipsrafferty 1y ago
  I don't read documents online. I use applications.
jakeinspace 1y ago
Besides screen readers, using a single descriptive noun as the link text might help for maintainability in some situations. First, it reduces the chances of a given link accidentally getting copied to another section by an unscrupulous maintainer. Second, in case of a dead link with a non-obvious URL (like maybe some ancient sourceforge link to a now renamed project), the link text is an extra bit of information to remind you if and how the dead link should be updated (assuming no comment exists). I admit that's a pretty minor benefit.
j0rd72 1y ago
A rule of thumb I've been following lately (when communicating in e.g. GH issues or Slack messages), is to use the title of the page where possible. Hopefully, the page title should reflect the page's content, and thus automatically works as a link title a lot of the time. In your example, I would expect the download page of Amaya to be titled "Download Amaya", so my link can simply be "If you are interested, [Download Amaya]!"
make3 1y ago
I think that the goal was to help ppl move away from an overly verbose, printed document like style

kqr 1y ago

I strongly dislike "click here" links because when I'm looking for a link, I want to read only the link-formatted words on a page to find the link I'm interested in. "Download Amaya" would be a great link. Just "Amaya" (unless leading to a page with information about Amaya, I suppose) or "click here" are not.

a3w 1y ago
I often want a second source to first check if that is trustworthy: copy paste amaya while having to not accidentally click it is annoying, since often linebreaks and multiword names or company+product splits occur. Selecting and reading text should be easy. Navigating HTML should be wanted, not accidental. Therefore, the ``click here'' works best for me. PS - "_Get Amaya_" should start a file transfer. - "Get _amaya_ over there!" sounds like "okay next site will be info dump before actual download", which is acceptable to gather trust like brand or imprint recognition over there instead of googling now.
- crtasm 1y ago
  Ideally browsers would have a shortcut to enter a text selection mode - this would also fix the annoyance of sites disabling text selection on certain elements. The Newpipe app on Android has such a mode for Youtube descriptions.
  - nayuki 1y ago
    > Ideally browsers would have a shortcut to enter a text selection mode They do - Firefox has the option "Search for text when you start typing". I have it enabled for decades.
jkestner 1y ago
Scannability is one of the reasons my formula is to link a complete descriptive phrase, like “Read more about hrefs,” or “take a survey on meeting times.” Links can be long, and probably doesn’t hurt SEO.

nulbyte 1y ago

Use a screen reader. Tab through the links. All you hear is, "click here." That's not helpful. Build a search engine. What information does "click here" offer your index? I agree with you that verbs don't seem all that problematic. Except when the verb is click and the object is here. I can stomach a link whose text is "Click Here to download Amaya," but if the link is literally just the two words, "click here," it is indistinguishable from others in many different contexts.

xanrah 1y ago
I'm sorry, should we design websites around SEO, or should search engines just use context properly?
- echelon 1y ago
  Search engines and websites are going to be subsumed by LLMs, so it's not like this argument matters anymore.
  - bigbuppo 1y ago
    The general consensus is that the dislike of AI is so strong, that a large chunk of the population will disregard something if they even think it is generated by AI. Also, the LLMs need a continuous feed of new, original material to ingest or they'll be all thumbs. While the long-running trend of SEO stuffing from low-value content farms has polluted search results for years now, Google didn't really care about fixing that problem because there's a perverse incentive to generate more ad revenue by making the first page results usesless. Who cares about doing the right thing? Daddy's got to get his quarterly numbers up. I should also note that those content farms were also early adopters of genAI as we know it today. Infinite growth isn't a thing. Every cancer eventually kills its host.
    - bee_rider 1y ago
      Are you sure that’s the general consensus about AI? HN has a very intense relationship with this stuff, because we have hardcore boosters and hardcore skeptics. Among people I meet offline the feelings seem a lot weaker in either direction.

quietbritishjim 1y ago

> > Get _Amaya_! > That suggests a link to the Amaya website, not a download page. That's not effective for a download. In all their examples, the link is to the homepage of the Amaya website, not some download page (never mind the actual download). It seems their message is watered down quite a bit by conflating the issue around "click here", which as other comments have said is an accessibility issue, with whether the text accurately reflects the target.

turboponyy 1y ago

Yea, the examples are wrong, and I'd interpret them the same way. The principle is something I agree with and try to abide by, though.

layer8 1y ago

I mostly agree. One terminological difficulty is that, depending on the website, most users don’t “click” anymore, but “tap”, so something like “see here” could be more universal.

xp84 1y ago
Am I the only one who is amused by seeing UIs fuss about using “tap” vs “click”? Is there anyone who has ever gotten confused and started looking for a mouse to plug into their phone because something said “click the X button” instead of “tap” it?
- loloquwowndueo 1y ago
  I’m still looking for a keyboard with an “Any” key. “Press Any Key” is very difficult without.
- Spooky23 1y ago
  I sit near to one of these teams at work. They are very earnest and lovely, but torture themselves at great length over this stuff. I find it funny but I will say that passion often produces amazing results.
- layer8 1y ago
  No, but for young people who only ever used a smartphone or tablet, it might be relatively unfamiliar terminology, and even when they do know what it means, may seem misplaced for how they use technology. As an analogy, consider how you would feel if the instruction manual of your microwave oven (or other physical appliance) would instruct you to "click" its buttons. It's not that you wouldn't understand what to do or that you'd be looking for a mouse port, it's that the word wouldn't be the right one for the circumstance. Incidentally, as a keyboard user I sometimes feel that way when there are instructions to "click" some UI button, but I will press the appropriate keyboard shortcut instead.
- cellularmitosis 1y ago
  This sort of pedantic need for correctness at the cost of clarity seems to also crop up as businesses become increasingly corporate and expand their offerings. “The best tires” becomes “the best vehicular solutions”

sgustard 1y ago

The early web was full of these links. Over time more actions became buttons with direct labels. This replaced clearly bad link patterns like: - To cancel this purchase [click here]. - To complete this purchase [click here].

1317 1y ago

I like "_To download W3C's editor/browser Amaya, click here_."

1-more 1y ago

"click here" makes sense in that context, but links can be viewed in the screen reader rotor, where they just show up as a list of links out of context. aria-describedby can help out, but if you just make the text inside the link better then you can avoid having to do that. I do agree with you about verbs.

anotheryou 1y ago

Agreed. I'd suggest: _Download Amaya here_, W3C's editor/browser or W3C's editor/browser: _Download Amaya here_

eadmund 1y ago

It’s not really about clarity, or even about accessibility (although both of those are great!): it’s about what a Web page is. A Web page is a document which can link to other documents. > Links should absolutely be verbs No, links imply a verb: ‘get.’ Buttons imply another verb: ‘post.’ It’d be awesome if there were ways in HTML to indicate other verbs, such as put and delete. > > Get _Amaya_! > That... doesn't tell me how to get Amaya. No, it doesn’t: it is a document calling its reader to action. That’s something a document does: it tells a reader how to do something, or calls the reader to do something. Clicking is just an artifact of a particular technology at a particular point in time (heck, I imagine most people nowadays don’t click, because they are using smartphones — they tap instead).

iLoveOncall 1y ago
Yes and we all know that websites are not built to be consumed by humans, so this argument makes perfect sense.

_ZeD_ 1y ago

You don't get hyperlinks in a document-centric approach... You think of them as action, they're not. Actions are for applications. You are reading a document. They are metadata. Think of them like "footnootes" of a paragraph, or references. Remember, you're reading a document, not using an application.

Diggsey 1y ago
Documents don't contain calls to action like "Download X" or "Tell me more about Y", so your argument falls down in relation to the examples presented by W3C.
dalmo3 1y ago
'Member the 80s?
chipsrafferty 1y ago
I don't read documents online. I use applications.

jakeinspace 1y ago

Besides screen readers, using a single descriptive noun as the link text might help for maintainability in some situations. First, it reduces the chances of a given link accidentally getting copied to another section by an unscrupulous maintainer. Second, in case of a dead link with a non-obvious URL (like maybe some ancient sourceforge link to a now renamed project), the link text is an extra bit of information to remind you if and how the dead link should be updated (assuming no comment exists). I admit that's a pretty minor benefit.

j0rd72 1y ago

A rule of thumb I've been following lately (when communicating in e.g. GH issues or Slack messages), is to use the title of the page where possible. Hopefully, the page title should reflect the page's content, and thus automatically works as a link title a lot of the time. In your example, I would expect the download page of Amaya to be titled "Download Amaya", so my link can simply be "If you are interested, [Download Amaya]!"

make3 1y ago

I think that the goal was to help ppl move away from an overly verbose, printed document like style