12 ms·
What I learned gathering nootropic ratings (2022)
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- reverendsteveii 1y agotime to put a pebble on the pile of anecdotal evidence for exercise as a life-changing nootropic. for two years now I've been doing 20 minutes of resistance training and 20 minutes of cardio every day and it helps so much with everything that its reached a point where my wife will flat out tell me "go lift" if I'm being irritable or having a hard time focusing.
- runamuck 1y agoRelated: Scott Alexander did a survey and provided analysis for Nootropic effectiveness - https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/nootropics-survey-2020-results https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/nootropics-survey-2020-resu...
- trehalose 1y agoIt appears he provided an analysis for subjective perception of effectiveness of various nootropics. I don't see much objective measurement of cognitive performance at all here. This kind of survey has value, but I think to call it "analysis for effectiveness" is very misleading.
- andrewla 1y agoThis post not only directly references that, but even incorporates the SSC/ACT data into the dataset.
- Workaccount2 1y agoAnother win for exercising. It's crazy to me how many people have miserable health, complain about their body and mental state endlessly, but still put up any roadblock they can think of to avoid exercising of any form.
- kccqzy 1y agoIt's bad habits from a younger age. I remember in my 20s, I didn't need to exercise at all and yet my body felt perfect. And so was my mental health. It was after several years of sedentary lifestyle that it clicked for me that my health was declining and exercise was needed to restore it. I suspect this could be the case for many: you don't need exercise and your body remains in a tip top shape when you are young.
- ed 1y agoRemember you probably were exercising until about 18, since it’s required by most schools.
- balfirevic 1y ago"Physical education" would be hilarious if it weren't sad. It's a pretty impressive feat that it managed to simultaneously: - make me spend quite a lot of time on something exercise-related (since it was "opposite shift" of regular school classes) - had me do next to zero actual exercise - teach me literally nothing about how exercise or training works - make me hate everything related to exercise for quite a few years Worse than a waste of time, it was actively harmful.
- madmask 1y agoThat’s almost nothing. 1 hour a week, at least in Italy, and mostly sports stuff close to cardio no weight training. I feel good with at least 4 hours a week of bodyweight training plus some cardio.
- omnicognate 1y agoI have chronic fatigue problems, which exercise exacerbates. I swim 3 times a week, but have to carefully regulate the intensity or it triggers post-exertional malaise. The exercise is important for my general health but it isn't positively correlated with my cognitive functioning. Quite the opposite.
- 1y ago
- cckolon 1y ago> 5 - 9 means strong effects, definitely not placebo. It’s impossible for anyone to say this convincingly about their own experience. If it were easy to tell whether an effect was due to placebo, we wouldn’t need blinded trials!
- elbasti 1y agoActually, a lof of blind trials are hard to run precisely because it's so obvious if you're not on the placebo side. Like...nobody could ever take a macro dose of LSD or mushrooms and not know it.
- foolswisdom 1y agoThat's because it's obvious due to effects other than the one you're trying to observe. Which is of course the case when you're dealing with psychedelics (and of course many other drugs).
- Scarblac 1y agoI'm still in doubt about the effectiveness of parachutes, there's never been a large double blind trial.
- y-curious 1y agoI'm stealing this one instead of using "it was revealed to me in a dream."
- andrewla 1y agoWe certainly shouldn't accept subjective evaluations as proof of effectiveness, but that does not give it zero value. The more subtle the effect or the more invested the subject is in establishing the effectiveness of an intervention (or any of many other confounders) the less likely it is to represent proof. But it is evidence. Think of this as more observational science rather than experimental science; we have to do some work to determine whether it is worth trying to do blinded experiments to validate an effective, and this is that work.
- Analemma_ 1y agoThe tl;dr is: 1. Apart from ADHD medications, which are very powerful, most drugs and weird obscure supplements have little effect (there are some intriguing but noisy results about peptides). 2. Exercise— especially weightlifting and HIIT— is also very powerful. There's evidence of a dose-response curve where light exercise is good but intense is better. Arguably this is pretty unsurprising, from an evolutionary perspective. It would be strange if our brains had "one weird trick" to perform a lot better with no downsides, since if it existed evolution should've found it. But being in good shape confers large benefits.
- yadaeno 1y ago> It would be strange if our brains had "one weird trick" to perform a lot better with no downsides, since if it existed evolution should've found it It would not be strange at all. We are constantly evolving and so is our environment. This argument is very similar to the "efficient market fallacy", if the market was perfectly efficient there would be no opportunity to create value, but in reality it is highly imperfect.
- perrygeo 1y agoSo regular exercise (lifting, HIIT, and light cardio outdoors) is literally that one weird trick. It's hard to identify any downsides but the upsides are tremendous. It's amazing that people will go out ingesting all sorts of questionable substances just to avoid getting in shape.
- arresin 1y agoThere is one more set of substances that work extremely well in partnership and are not harmful. The first is huperzine-a.
- balfirevic 1y ago> It's hard to identify any downsides but the upsides are tremendous. I wish! If you're lucky (or not particularly unlucky) that might be true. I don't feel any mental benefits, nor do I sleep better. Fun kinds of exercise (badminton, football, BJJ) always seem to injure me me over longer time periods (and it takes months, or even years, to heal when you're in your forties). And they are not very forgiving, schedule-wise. Lifting weights or rowing on a machine is painfully boring, but it does make me feel better physically. It's a great upside, but the downsides are real too.
- phoronixrly 1y agoThe suggestion/allusion that the EU's GDP per capita is lower than the US due to Adderall and Dexedrine not being approved/available is wild. Kind of makes me not want to take seriously the rest of the article...
- stevenAthompson 1y agoI'm not even certain it's fair to refer to these things (or modafinil) as nootropics, as nootropics (as defined by the person who coined the phrase) should lack stimulate/sedative properties.
- y-curious 1y agoData is well presented but the conclusions are iffy. But hey, maybe Europe can stop limiting its own industry with regulation if they just up that dextroamphetamine dose?
- jackdeansmith 1y agoI think this is clearly a joke
- phoronixrly 1y agoSure hope so.
- blitzar 1y agoAdderall is a performance enhancing drug, and widly used as such. Its nigh on impossible to compete at the highest level workplaces with doped employees if you are a natural worker.
- phoronixrly 1y agoThe graph implies is that aderall causes people to perform at 150% on average if 100% of the workforce is on it. I say that both implying that aderall has such a massive objective effect and implying it is so widely (ab)used are the laughable ramblings of a psychonaut at worst and unsubstantiated at best.
- gavinray 1y agoI've tried everything, and the only things that make any noticeable difference in my experience: Modafinil, Racetams, Noopept, Phenibut Noopept seems to be curiously missing from this list?
- throwaway743 1y agoYeah noopept is legit. Its effects on learning, recall, and organization of thoughts are significant.
- DontchaKnowit 1y agoPhenibut will FUCK you up. Ever take a big dose? Its like being piss drunk. Very fun substance also nasty as fuck and undoubtably bad for your brain. (I got weird neurological "withdrawal" symptoms after like 3 days of taking it)
- gavinray 1y agoI've hospitalized myself from an accidental overdose on it, don't have to tell me lol. Spent 8 continuous hours vomiting with the worst nausea I've ever felt in my life. Lesson hard learned. I've been using Phenibut for nearly 10 years, I only take it on the weekends. I quite enjoy high doses, feels much better than drinking without negative physical side effects. I don't drink alcohol in general, to be honest.
- drewbitt 1y agoIt causes next-day depression for me. Could only be purely recreational.
- taeric 1y agoIt is frustratingly hard for me to trust most any nootropic discussion nowadays. Without many large random trials, there are as many questions as answers afterwards. It doesn't help that I'm on Adderall, but if left to my own devices, would absolutely skip it. I'm assuming I benefit in the able to think way from it. Largely the only reason I know I missed a dose is if I find I lose my patience quickly with others.
- nomel 1y ago> Without many large random trials That, historically, does not work well for neurochemistry. Large random trials are good for an average biological response of profitable chemicals, but it seems there are significant differences in neurochemistry, between people, that these don't capture. If you've ever had a prescription for most anything mental related, like ADHD, depression, etc, there's never just one drug, there's a panel that you just kinda go through until one works for your personal neurochemistry, with some having detrimental side effects for some people. Unsurprisingly, it seems to be the same with many of these nootropics. I've had several very negative reactions to common nootropics at fractional doses, where others have positive experiences at many times the dose. A few resulted in migraines every day I took it, until I stopped, with one quickly resulting in depression and the only suicidal thoughts of my life, which went aways just as fast as I stopped. One hurt my short term memory so much I couldn't repeat a phone number (a very potent racetam like). Some nootropics are precursors, which are mostly self regulating/supplements, but there are many out there that very actively poke low level neurochemicals, and your personal response will vary, just as is expected in the regulated drug world. Min/maxing personal neurochemistry won't come from large random trials.
- taeric 1y agoI hear what you are saying, but I have a hard time thinking it is an argument against RCTs. Notably, Adderall is a strong counter to this idea. It is clearly effective per all of the tests it has been through. Not surprisingly, it is one of the only ones listed in this website that works. Quite well. There is an argument that people should treat their own lives as an experiment. Where you track the things you do and see if you can find patterns on mood and productivity and such. If you want to know what generally works, though, there is no counter to effectiveness in RCTs, though? Put differently, when has evidence ever gone counter to RCTs? Not just are there some questions that an RCT hasn't covered, but times it has been counter to the results?
- dkdbejwi383 1y agoWhen the author talks about "weightlifting", I wonder if they specifically mean the sport of snatch and clean & jerk, or "lifting weights" in general
- broof 1y agoI think most people use weightlifting to refer to lifting weights in general. If someone said “competitive weightlifting” then I would assume that to mean stuff like clean & jerk.
- wslh 1y agoWhile I like your project, there should be strong warnings. Some of the substances listed, like amphetamines, aren't just supplements, they actively and unavoidably alter your brain function. Their effects are "much less subjective", others, like omega-3, may have (or not) benefits that you don't feel at all.
- phoronixrly 1y agoI echo that. If you're considering this list, please consider talking to a physician first, yes, even if you're in the US. Self-medicating based on randos on the Internet or a few cherry-picked studies is irresponsible, doubly so when dealing with addictive substances with nobody to oversee the therapy, triply so when in a country with no safety net for people with addiction, or sick people in general. And before you say I appeal to authority, I understand people don't respect doctors or their country's healthcare system, but I suggest they should acquire formal medical education themselves before starting to put random shit in their body. And no, reading the entire body of blogs by Scott Alexander does not count.
- readthenotes1 1y ago'...nootropic ... “Any substance purported to increase or enhance cognitive abilities." ... communities like the nootropics subreddit, which has a great begginer’s guide.' At first I thought the mispelling was intentional irony. But the leak to the guide shows that it's just unintentional irony
- RS-232 1y agoTo add... weightlifting isn't a substance and doesn't fit the definition of a nootropic. Also, regarding weightlifting... there was no mention about the risk of continuous muscle trauma, scar tissue build-up, nerve damage, and ligament damage.
- negativepanda 1y agoThere's one very simple "nootropic" that I've discovered many years ago and have been doing most days of the week. Buying a cup of coffee and taking a walk in nature. It makes me feel better than just coffee or just walking in nature. Another benefit is that in the days I can do this, I have something to look forward to since waking up.
- bluecalm 1y agoIn myy experience it works even better with a stimulant with a smoother curve than caffeine and optionally a bit more intensive (but still on lighter side) exercise.
- negativepanda 1y agoCan you give some examples of the stimulants?
- bluecalm 1y agoModafinil 50-100mg or micro dose of long release amphetamine like Vyvanse.
- cjbgkagh 1y agoWas just about to say this, Modafinil is my stimulant drug of choice. 100mg. Really smooth and lasts all day. I do need to take amitryptiline to help sleep but I have noise intolerance related sleep issues anyway and the combination of the two meds is complementary. My only regret is not starting sooner - I had a rather anti drug bias and saw needing medication as a weakness.
- smokeydoe 1y agoJust an anecdote, but Modafinil is one of the worst stimulants I have tried. It’s great as a one-off tool for something like staying awake to drive late at night, but every time i have taken it I get intense depression and aggravation for the next 2 days. It’s really strange. Things that normally do not worry me cause great mental suffering. If it wasn’t for that and the deep sleep impact, it would be great. I read the half life is ~16 hours.
- butlike 1y agoYou only like amphetamine for the adrenaline dump and dopamine. Also life changing doesn't necessarily mean for the better.
- jobs_throwaway 1y agoI found it quite effective in helping me to grind leetcode when I was job hunting while working full-time but YMMV. Perhaps I would've gotten the same gig, but I tried doing a month without it and found my ability to power through was significantly lower than with amphetamines. Maybe it was because the amphetamine gave me an artificially high amount of dopamine which offset the inherently boring nature of the task.
- phoronixrly 1y ago... How are you doing now?
- jobs_throwaway 1y agoDoing great! I'm doing well in the job - as expected, the actual tasks required of me are ~nothing like leetcode. My sleep is definitely better after discontinuing amphetamine use. Got a massive raise so that alleviates a lot of stress around money as well. No complaints from me, I'd do the exact same thing if I had to do it over again.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- w10-1 1y agoThis is a beautiful bit of statistics, but perhaps displaced into self-reflection. All therapy, practiced with any consistency, is effective -- probably because sacrificing for one's self builds up self-investment, and self-investment leads to self-protective decision-making that improves outcome and outlook. Nootropics with perceptible feedback will always seem to be working. This might make their practice more consistent initially, but actually undercuts the build-up of self-regard by replacing it with dependency. The statistical and analytical perspective is the mature way to handle objective decisions over stochastic processes, and it's the right approach for validating drugs at population scale. But for personal assessments, decisions, and planning, the statistical can at best provide warnings about addiction or ineffectiveness. But more dangerously, it can give a veneer of objective confidence reinforcing self-destructive feedback loops, and suppress the uncertainty that would drive reflection and personal integration. It's much better to embrace uncertainty, and share with a friend.
- andrewla 1y ago> All therapy, practiced with any consistency, is effective This is just clearly false? I don't mean to go super-literal here, but unless you have a very narrow definition of what counts as therapy (or if your definition of "therapy" is simply "any thing which, practiced with consistency, is effective") this is not even wrong.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- icameron 1y agoThey work until they don’t in my anecdotal experience. Any substance it seems the first time is the best. Then, slowly, my brain chemistry adapts, and it becomes less effective. Sometimes a higher dose works for a while. But it never lasts. Then side effects start to build up, and before long it’s counterproductive. SNRIs worked, until after a few months I lost all my endurance (running) and libido. Kratom was wonderful at almost everything, until it eventually stopped hitting as hard and skipping it caused withdrawals. Micro dose maybe worked but very quickly wasn’t effective (like after 2-3 times with psilocybin, or a couple months of ketamine) many others on this list have a similar track record with my brain. Good at first but the effect wears off after a while and usually end up worse off for it.
- Aurornis 1y ago> They work until they don’t in my anecdotal experience. Any substance it seems the first time is the best. Then, slowly, my brain chemistry adapts, and it becomes less effective. It’s wild to me that the nootropics community evolved into a hybrid between the recreational drug community and supplement enthusiast communities while forgetting all of the lessons people learned in those communities long ago. So much of the nootropics discourse is about compounds that have a moderate to high recreational value: The above post is talking about Kratom (an opioid) as if it was a nootropic, which would be unfathomable under the original description of nootropics. The linked article also includes psilocybin, tianeptine (a compound that started out with some myths about serotonin but was later discovered to be an opioid), and phenibut (an extremely addictive substance, see /r/quittingphenibut ) The latter substance is known for temporarily reducing anxiety and giving a confidence boost, which is a common theme among substances cited as helpful. Something about calling them “nootropics” seems to reset people’s expectations and they forget that all recreational drugs make people feel some combination of euphoria, motivation, confidence boost, anxiety reduction, or stimulation at first, before tolerance takes in. People find themselves not only tolerant to these substances, but in withdrawal when they don’t take them (as mentioned above) Phenibut is one of the most obvious recreational drugs that got pulled into the “nootropics” label for years. Nootropics Depot got caught importing large numbers of drums of this substance for resale. They deleted a lot of the discussion about their lawsuit on /r/nootropics (did you know they control the subreddit?) and have put forward a very selective version of the story that makes them look like the victims. Meanwhile it was one of the most common debilitating addiction stories coming out of supplement and nootropics communities until word spread that it was highly addictive and the withdrawals were very long. Whatever meaning the word “nootropic” originally had is long lost. It’s now a blanket term for experimenting with powerful supplements or prescription drugs under a different name. I think that alternative name has left a lot of people blind to the reality of what they’re doing. They also frequently don’t realize that self-reported feelings of drug liking effect are not indicative of the drug’s objective positive effects.
- DaveZale 1y agoI designed and marketed "stacks" combined in a simple, small capsule for several years. The best was galantamine, noopept, acetyltyrosine, and cdp-choline. It was beloved by many. However, my magnum opus could have been stacks that changed daily, to prevent any neurochemical adaptation or tolerance. But, at some point the almighty paycheck hijacked my brain. Why not include money as an anti-nootropic in your study? Judging by the boundless stupidity we are seeing in the world of oligarchs now, maybe too much money is tge ultimate anti-nootropic /s