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There are countries besides USA and China. It was just terrible geopolitics decision for US to depend on 1 country for imports instead of keeping the power bal

There are countries besides USA and China. It was just terrible geopolitics decision for US to depend on 1 country for imports instead of keeping the power balance between countries of the world.

dgb23 1y ago
Is it geopolitics that is at fault here or rather corporations? I think Coca Cola might be a counter example if we look at how they procure their sugar.
_heimdall 1y ago
I have to assume it wasn't a concerted effort to depend mostly on China for imports. Companies are each making the best financial decision for themselves and China turned out to be the more competitive option most of the them.
- piker 1y ago
  I've always understood China's currency manipulation to play an initial role in making it an attractive source of commodity products.
  - ImHereToVote 1y ago
    Why can't a sovereign state control their fiscal policy? Who should decide what the value of the Renminbi should be if not the PBC?
    - cma256 1y ago
      The same reason a sovereign state can't act unilaterally in any domain -- diplomacy. If your actions affect another (or even just inspire interest) then the other party may make decisions which affect your country.
    - _heimdall 1y ago
      Currency debasement is more monetary policy than fiscal policy I think. Either way I didn't read the GP comment as saying China can't do that, just that doing so is what gave them an edge long enough to gobble up a lot of our trade.
  - hearsathought 1y ago
    China was an attractive source for the same reason vietnam and india are today. Large, young, disciplined, literate and organized population with low wages and an accomodating political elite. All currencies are manipulated. It's a meaningless statement.
    - piker 1y ago
      Okay, those are good points, but I don't think the statement is meaningless. China, as I think most understand, deliberately pumped RMB into the market in a manner that made its resources available to foreign markets by trading a capital account deficit for a trade surplus. It's literally the first thing discussed in the RMB wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renminbi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renminbi.
      - bigyabai 1y ago
        Which is a completely fair play in a globalist society when you're a nation with an outstanding capital surplus. The US did this for centuries by exporting the dollar as a reserve currency, up until the gold standard ended and the value of the dollar as fiat started deteriorating. Imperial economics 101, really. Offer stability in one hand and demand compensation with the other.
    - _heimdall 1y ago
      > All currencies are manipulated. It's a meaningless statement. That's probably (mostly) true today, but it wasn't always the case and it doesn't have to be that way. More importantly, just because most countries manipulate their currencies doesn't mean its meaningless to take issue with the practice or to notice when one country does it more aggressively than others.
      - hearsathought 1y ago
        Nobody does it more aggressively or less aggressively. It's done to an "agreed" upon level. Whether it is china, india, eu, japan, etc, every country pretty much sets the range. It's not like it is a secret. It's out in the open. Just like interest rates.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  Right, that's the difference between a centralised economy and a free market. These thin-vieled calls for a centralised, planned economy (people of my generation had another word for it) are getting more common and in more places.
  - harimau777 1y ago
    Advocating for a centralised economy isn't actually common on the left. Most people advocate for Nordic inspired democratic socialism or social democracy. A fair number advocate for various forms of anarchism (e.g. worker owned collectives). Advocates for a Soviet style centralised economy exist, but they aren't common.
    - BobaFloutist 1y ago
      Do you think all the people saying capitalism is the problem are advocating Nordic-style Social Democracy (with capitalism intact but regulated)? Is that why they keep quoting Marx?
      - dragonwriter 1y ago
        The Marxist critique of capitalism (the specific real world system dominant in the deceloped West at the time Marx wrote) is quite popular among people whose end goal is not Leninist state capitalism. Marx himself, prescriptively, wasn’t all to specific beyond the distant end-goal stateless system and the immediate next steps in contemporary states (particularly, in terms of a detailed agenda, Germany, but he made some commentary on some steps other places.) But even where he was, plenty of people that share his critique of capitalism either don’t see his intermediate term prescriptions as realistic areas of concern for organizing current effort, or don't see them as mevessarily desirable at all.
    - rmah 1y ago
      Yet the left (democratic party) nominated a self-avowed socialist for the next NYC mayoral race. One who literally talks about seizing the means of production and opening city-owned groceries that won't have to pay rent. Let's see how it goes.
- hayst4ck 1y ago
  What we see is exactly what Uber and Lyft effectively did. China subsidized manufacturing at the cost of their citizens, but in doing so destroyed much of the competition, giving them a monopoly like position in industrial manufacturing cemented by a mastery of economies of scale, which can now be used to exert global power. Any country which did not abuse their citizens or subsidize their businesses became noncompetitive. And why would you use old school taxis when uber/lyft were offering $5 rides in a 7x7mile area, and how could old taxi companies compete when they are forced to compete with people not bound by market forces?
freddie_mercury 1y ago
"White House spokesperson Kush Desai said the Trump administration remains committed to reviving U.S. manufacturing" Irrelevant since the point is to grow US manufacturing, not manufacturing in "countries besides USA and China".
donatj 1y ago
The problem has become less about cheap labor and more about general know how. China simply leads the world in manufacturing know how. https://youtu.be/L9f5SQQKr5o https://youtu.be/L9f5SQQKr5o
- ForestCritter 1y ago
  And slave labour. Nobody cares that their cheap products are the fruit of slave labour.
  - a4isms 1y ago
    Louis CK deserves credit for calling this out in a brilliant bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl-1jc1oDRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl-1jc1oDRk (Yes, this video is framed and has Italian subtitles, but all the others I found do weird things with panning and clipping to evade censorship filters, and I believe that his body language is an important part of the delivery.)
- bluGill 1y ago
  While true, that know-how is misleading. There is a lot of know-how in the US - the US makes more than every before, which means the know-how is still here! It is just focused on the things we already make and do well on, so often you can't get at it.
  - franktankbank 1y ago
    > the US makes more than every before How true is this? Is this financial sleight-of-hand? We assemble the parts after the hard part was already done?
    - bluGill 1y ago
      There is a lot of automation. What used to be done by 2000 men (sexism intended) in 1950 is now done by 150 people. Of course parts come from all over, and go to all over so it is really had to agree on a measure, but there is a lot done in the US.
werdnapk 1y ago
Isn't this how capitalism works? What the USA claims to be the best at?
the__alchemist 1y ago
You have missed something: It's not feasible to compete with China on price and availability, compared to any other country. Challenge: Try designing something, and figuring out how to get the parts. Or, try to have a custom circuit board made. You will find the difficulty goes way up for countries that aren't China. If that isn't enough, imagine you are choosing Hard mode by sourcing non-China, and your competition chose Easy mode.
- voidUpdate 1y ago
  Custom PCBs can be gotten from Aisler, based in the Netherlands
  - sokoloff 1y ago
    I haven’t quoted Aisler, but I did talk to three or four US-based PCB/PCBA houses for a hobby project I was working on that ended up selling around 100 units. The US houses were 20-50x JLC/PCBWay at prototype volume and 10-25x at low volume. Their proto assembly turn times were only a day better. Unless something has to be done in the US for some specific reason (export controls or contractual reasons), I don’t see how to justify doing it on-shore.
  - progbits 1y ago
    I live in EU and like the idea, both as support for local economy and lower environment impact from shipping. I've tried aisler instead of jlc/pcbway twice and I regret both orders. For more money I got the boards later, of worse quality and with bad customer support experience when one of my orders was lost. Sorry but they simply are not anywhere close to the chinese options.
    - voidUpdate 1y ago
      You should probably let GreatScott know that so he stops getting sponsorships from them :P
      - progbits 1y ago
verdverm 1y ago
The thinking at the time was that China would turn into a democracy by liberalizing the economy.
mathiaspoint 1y ago
Mexico has been cheaper for a while now. My understanding is that shipping from China was subsidized somehow and that's a big part of why it's still cheaper overall.

There are countries besides USA and China. It was just terrible geopolitics decision for US to depend on 1 country for imports instead of keeping the power balance between countries of the world.

dgb23 1y ago

Is it geopolitics that is at fault here or rather corporations? I think Coca Cola might be a counter example if we look at how they procure their sugar.

_heimdall 1y ago

I have to assume it wasn't a concerted effort to depend mostly on China for imports. Companies are each making the best financial decision for themselves and China turned out to be the more competitive option most of the them.

piker 1y ago
I've always understood China's currency manipulation to play an initial role in making it an attractive source of commodity products.
- ImHereToVote 1y ago
  Why can't a sovereign state control their fiscal policy? Who should decide what the value of the Renminbi should be if not the PBC?
  - cma256 1y ago
    The same reason a sovereign state can't act unilaterally in any domain -- diplomacy. If your actions affect another (or even just inspire interest) then the other party may make decisions which affect your country.
  - _heimdall 1y ago
    Currency debasement is more monetary policy than fiscal policy I think. Either way I didn't read the GP comment as saying China can't do that, just that doing so is what gave them an edge long enough to gobble up a lot of our trade.
- hearsathought 1y ago
  China was an attractive source for the same reason vietnam and india are today. Large, young, disciplined, literate and organized population with low wages and an accomodating political elite. All currencies are manipulated. It's a meaningless statement.
  - piker 1y ago
    Okay, those are good points, but I don't think the statement is meaningless. China, as I think most understand, deliberately pumped RMB into the market in a manner that made its resources available to foreign markets by trading a capital account deficit for a trade surplus. It's literally the first thing discussed in the RMB wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renminbi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renminbi.
    - bigyabai 1y ago
      Which is a completely fair play in a globalist society when you're a nation with an outstanding capital surplus. The US did this for centuries by exporting the dollar as a reserve currency, up until the gold standard ended and the value of the dollar as fiat started deteriorating. Imperial economics 101, really. Offer stability in one hand and demand compensation with the other.
  - _heimdall 1y ago
    > All currencies are manipulated. It's a meaningless statement. That's probably (mostly) true today, but it wasn't always the case and it doesn't have to be that way. More importantly, just because most countries manipulate their currencies doesn't mean its meaningless to take issue with the practice or to notice when one country does it more aggressively than others.
    - hearsathought 1y ago
      Nobody does it more aggressively or less aggressively. It's done to an "agreed" upon level. Whether it is china, india, eu, japan, etc, every country pretty much sets the range. It's not like it is a secret. It's out in the open. Just like interest rates.
dotancohen 1y ago
Right, that's the difference between a centralised economy and a free market. These thin-vieled calls for a centralised, planned economy (people of my generation had another word for it) are getting more common and in more places.
- harimau777 1y ago
  Advocating for a centralised economy isn't actually common on the left. Most people advocate for Nordic inspired democratic socialism or social democracy. A fair number advocate for various forms of anarchism (e.g. worker owned collectives). Advocates for a Soviet style centralised economy exist, but they aren't common.
  - BobaFloutist 1y ago
    Do you think all the people saying capitalism is the problem are advocating Nordic-style Social Democracy (with capitalism intact but regulated)? Is that why they keep quoting Marx?
    - dragonwriter 1y ago
      The Marxist critique of capitalism (the specific real world system dominant in the deceloped West at the time Marx wrote) is quite popular among people whose end goal is not Leninist state capitalism. Marx himself, prescriptively, wasn’t all to specific beyond the distant end-goal stateless system and the immediate next steps in contemporary states (particularly, in terms of a detailed agenda, Germany, but he made some commentary on some steps other places.) But even where he was, plenty of people that share his critique of capitalism either don’t see his intermediate term prescriptions as realistic areas of concern for organizing current effort, or don't see them as mevessarily desirable at all.
  - rmah 1y ago
    Yet the left (democratic party) nominated a self-avowed socialist for the next NYC mayoral race. One who literally talks about seizing the means of production and opening city-owned groceries that won't have to pay rent. Let's see how it goes.
hayst4ck 1y ago
What we see is exactly what Uber and Lyft effectively did. China subsidized manufacturing at the cost of their citizens, but in doing so destroyed much of the competition, giving them a monopoly like position in industrial manufacturing cemented by a mastery of economies of scale, which can now be used to exert global power. Any country which did not abuse their citizens or subsidize their businesses became noncompetitive. And why would you use old school taxis when uber/lyft were offering $5 rides in a 7x7mile area, and how could old taxi companies compete when they are forced to compete with people not bound by market forces?

freddie_mercury 1y ago

"White House spokesperson Kush Desai said the Trump administration remains committed to reviving U.S. manufacturing" Irrelevant since the point is to grow US manufacturing, not manufacturing in "countries besides USA and China".

donatj 1y ago

The problem has become less about cheap labor and more about general know how. China simply leads the world in manufacturing know how. https://youtu.be/L9f5SQQKr5o https://youtu.be/L9f5SQQKr5o

ForestCritter 1y ago
And slave labour. Nobody cares that their cheap products are the fruit of slave labour.
- a4isms 1y ago
  Louis CK deserves credit for calling this out in a brilliant bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl-1jc1oDRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl-1jc1oDRk (Yes, this video is framed and has Italian subtitles, but all the others I found do weird things with panning and clipping to evade censorship filters, and I believe that his body language is an important part of the delivery.)
bluGill 1y ago
While true, that know-how is misleading. There is a lot of know-how in the US - the US makes more than every before, which means the know-how is still here! It is just focused on the things we already make and do well on, so often you can't get at it.
- franktankbank 1y ago
  > the US makes more than every before How true is this? Is this financial sleight-of-hand? We assemble the parts after the hard part was already done?
  - bluGill 1y ago
    There is a lot of automation. What used to be done by 2000 men (sexism intended) in 1950 is now done by 150 people. Of course parts come from all over, and go to all over so it is really had to agree on a measure, but there is a lot done in the US.

werdnapk 1y ago

Isn't this how capitalism works? What the USA claims to be the best at?

the__alchemist 1y ago

You have missed something: It's not feasible to compete with China on price and availability, compared to any other country. Challenge: Try designing something, and figuring out how to get the parts. Or, try to have a custom circuit board made. You will find the difficulty goes way up for countries that aren't China. If that isn't enough, imagine you are choosing Hard mode by sourcing non-China, and your competition chose Easy mode.

voidUpdate 1y ago
Custom PCBs can be gotten from Aisler, based in the Netherlands
- sokoloff 1y ago
  I haven’t quoted Aisler, but I did talk to three or four US-based PCB/PCBA houses for a hobby project I was working on that ended up selling around 100 units. The US houses were 20-50x JLC/PCBWay at prototype volume and 10-25x at low volume. Their proto assembly turn times were only a day better. Unless something has to be done in the US for some specific reason (export controls or contractual reasons), I don’t see how to justify doing it on-shore.
- progbits 1y ago
  I live in EU and like the idea, both as support for local economy and lower environment impact from shipping. I've tried aisler instead of jlc/pcbway twice and I regret both orders. For more money I got the boards later, of worse quality and with bad customer support experience when one of my orders was lost. Sorry but they simply are not anywhere close to the chinese options.
  - voidUpdate 1y ago
    You should probably let GreatScott know that so he stops getting sponsorships from them :P
    - progbits 1y ago

verdverm 1y ago

The thinking at the time was that China would turn into a democracy by liberalizing the economy.

mathiaspoint 1y ago

Mexico has been cheaper for a while now. My understanding is that shipping from China was subsidized somehow and that's a big part of why it's still cheaper overall.