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From the lawsuit > For example, when a user purchases an iPhone, the user is steered to use Apple’s default email product, Apple Mail. It is only through a com

From the lawsuit > For example, when a user purchases an iPhone, the user is steered to use Apple’s default email product, Apple Mail. It is only through a complex labyrinth of settings that a user can change her default email application away from the Apple “Mail” application towards an alternative like Gmail (Google) or Proton Mail. > At least for mail a user can in theory modify the default setting. On the calendar front the situation is even worse. A user’s default calendar is Apple Calendar, and the default cannot be modified That's pretty evil & predatory to me. The fact that it is by design (someone decided it needed to this awful) is why Apple is being evil here. And this is just one example. There's more > For example, Apple banned apps from its App Store that supported Google Voice because Apple sought to advantage its own services over Google’s

energywut 1y ago
> That's pretty evil & predatory to me. That's not what the parent is asking. The OP said it was the most evil ever done. Big Tech does predatory and evil stuff all the time. That's not what's being claimed. The OP is claiming that this specific thing is the worst, the singular event that is above and beyond all others.
cosmic_cheese 1y ago
I mean, does Settings > Apps > Gmail (or whichever other app) > Default Mail App really qualify as “a complex labyrinth”? Sure, it’d be a good thing to add a “Default Apps” section under Settings > General or something, but calling the current route complex almost sounds like an insult to users. EDIT: Actually, there already is a “Default Apps” section right at the top of the page of Settings > Apps. Yeah, if that’s a “labyrinth” then the assumed level of user intelligence is quite low.
- ghaff 1y ago
  I've probably used Apple Mail and/or Apple Calendar at some point in my ownership of Apple products but they're both using Google products at the moment on my phone and I have no recollection of setting those up as being complex through a variety of hardware transitions.
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    It’s also probably worth noting that most of the stock iOS apps are the most service-provider-agnostic in the industry. Mail and Notes work on bog standard IMAP, and Calendar and Contacts are built on CalDAV and CardDAV, respectively. Google services work fine in all of them (though could be better if it weren’t for Google’s crappy IMAP implementation). The only case where they don’t work is with non-standard providers like Proton. Go try to sign into your open-standards-abiding calendar and notes accounts in the Calendar and Contacts bundled with nearly every Android phone on the planet and see how well that goes.
- surgical_fire 1y ago
  > I mean, does Settings > Apps > Gmail (or whichever other app) > Default Mail App really qualify as “a complex labyrinth”? Compared to Android? Yes. I have no idea why iPhone users put up with this shit.
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    See my edit. I have two Android devices sitting right in front of me, and they’re identical to iOS in this regard: Settings > Apps > Default apps.
- dcow 1y ago
  I didn't even know you could change the default mail app on iOS and I’ve used it for the better part of a decade now, as a Proton user too. I’ve endured the frustration because I thought it was fixed. Either being allowed to change it is relatively new, region locked, or yeah it’s a labyrinth.
  - wickedsight 1y ago
    > Either being allowed to change it is relatively new, region locked, or yeah it’s a labyrinth. It's about 5 years old by now. Not having looked for something in a couple of years and being bummed out by that doesn't make Apple the bad guy.
    - TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
      Why would anyone look for something they haven't been told about?
      - BugsJustFindMe 1y ago
        You may as well ask why you should look anywhere but at your own feet while walking around your city. You have been told that every new OS update brings new features and abilities, and Apple publishes an iPhone User Guide for learning about iOS features like how to change the default mail app (https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/change-the-default-apps-iphc57feab64/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/change-the-default-ap...). It's on you to look.
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    It’s not region locked, and as the sibling post notes it’s been there for a while. I’m not sure how much more simple it can be made (open Settings, tap Apps, and there it is at the top of the page). I suppose it could be possible for apps to prompt the user to change the default, but I’m honestly pretty sick of that behavior on desktop (e.g. I have several browsers installed for various reasons and they nearly all bug me about being default) and would rather not see it copied to mobile OSes too (I don’t believe Android allows apps to show such a prompt either).
jeffbee 1y ago
The "complex labyrinth" is only reinforcing the impression that you and the author of that brief are both cranks. "Email" is the top setting under "Default Apps". My iPhone doesn't even offer Apple's Mail app in that screen, probably because I deleted it, which also was not labyrinthine but actually quite trivial.
- 6510 1y ago
  home screen > settings > default apps > email Easy if you know where to look. If you end up in the wrong sub menu you might simply search the web for instructions. Apple provides web pages where they explain how to use the iphone. There is a section called "mail" under "apps" that shows up in the search results. It really wants me to read the help in dutch, the "apps > mail" section has 14 pages that don't talk about changing the default app, in stead they explain how to use the various features of their own mail app (that is also configured by default) I don't get why the help pages need a different menu structure. One has to go to "personalize your iphone" which has 18 pages, changing default apps is towards the end. Searching the Dutch help website for "mail" I get only 3 unhelpful search results. If i change it to US English it immediately redirects to Dutch again. lol? Using the "English" for Latin America and the Caribbean works. There I get 5 pages worth of results. Changing the default app is on page 3. Not impossible but it is not a simple prompt on launch of the app "Banana mail is not currently your default email client. Do you want to set Banana mail as your default app for sending email?" I'm quite dense of course, if they are going to be like that I will NEVER create an email client for this platform. The web and their TOS is full of good reasons to never create an app for iphone. In a laps of sanity I created a pwa one time. I've explained to exactly one user how to add the option to add a web app to the home screen to the menu so that they can add a web app to the home screen. It was a really hard sell and it took a long time. I of course had to laugh at myself for acting against my better judgement. Imagine someone made a web app email client and tried to compete with the build in client. Then in the middle of the struggle apple jokes about discontinuing PWA. Seems a pretty level playing field?
  - efitz 1y ago
    > Easy if you know where to look. If you end up in the wrong sub menu you might simply search the web for instructions. Actually, at the very top of the home page of the settings app is a search bar. If you type in anything reasonable (default, email, mail) then one of the first 2-3 results will be “default apps” or “default email”.
BugsJustFindMe 1y ago
Except that those claims feel like intentional exaggerations and not meaningfully true? I use both iOS and Android. > It is only through a complex labyrinth of settings I have no love for the way iOS settings are done, but calling the setting for this in particular a complex labyrinth is some pretty blatant editorializing. > A user’s default calendar is Apple Calendar, and the default cannot be modified I don't think this is a true statement? My default calendar is a Google calendar. Actually switching to instead use my Apple iCloud calendar has been something of a chore.
jajuuka 1y ago
I'm just baffled how if we look at Microsoft or Google everyone agrees that the tyranny of the default is a problem. Then it comes to Apple and we get statements like "no, I love that I have no choice." It's frustrating.

energywut 1y ago

> That's pretty evil & predatory to me. That's not what the parent is asking. The OP said it was the most evil ever done. Big Tech does predatory and evil stuff all the time. That's not what's being claimed. The OP is claiming that this specific thing is the worst, the singular event that is above and beyond all others.

cosmic_cheese 1y ago

I mean, does Settings > Apps > Gmail (or whichever other app) > Default Mail App really qualify as “a complex labyrinth”? Sure, it’d be a good thing to add a “Default Apps” section under Settings > General or something, but calling the current route complex almost sounds like an insult to users. EDIT: Actually, there already is a “Default Apps” section right at the top of the page of Settings > Apps. Yeah, if that’s a “labyrinth” then the assumed level of user intelligence is quite low.

ghaff 1y ago
I've probably used Apple Mail and/or Apple Calendar at some point in my ownership of Apple products but they're both using Google products at the moment on my phone and I have no recollection of setting those up as being complex through a variety of hardware transitions.
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  It’s also probably worth noting that most of the stock iOS apps are the most service-provider-agnostic in the industry. Mail and Notes work on bog standard IMAP, and Calendar and Contacts are built on CalDAV and CardDAV, respectively. Google services work fine in all of them (though could be better if it weren’t for Google’s crappy IMAP implementation). The only case where they don’t work is with non-standard providers like Proton. Go try to sign into your open-standards-abiding calendar and notes accounts in the Calendar and Contacts bundled with nearly every Android phone on the planet and see how well that goes.
surgical_fire 1y ago
> I mean, does Settings > Apps > Gmail (or whichever other app) > Default Mail App really qualify as “a complex labyrinth”? Compared to Android? Yes. I have no idea why iPhone users put up with this shit.
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  See my edit. I have two Android devices sitting right in front of me, and they’re identical to iOS in this regard: Settings > Apps > Default apps.
dcow 1y ago
I didn't even know you could change the default mail app on iOS and I’ve used it for the better part of a decade now, as a Proton user too. I’ve endured the frustration because I thought it was fixed. Either being allowed to change it is relatively new, region locked, or yeah it’s a labyrinth.
- wickedsight 1y ago
  > Either being allowed to change it is relatively new, region locked, or yeah it’s a labyrinth. It's about 5 years old by now. Not having looked for something in a couple of years and being bummed out by that doesn't make Apple the bad guy.
  - TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
    Why would anyone look for something they haven't been told about?
    - BugsJustFindMe 1y ago
      You may as well ask why you should look anywhere but at your own feet while walking around your city. You have been told that every new OS update brings new features and abilities, and Apple publishes an iPhone User Guide for learning about iOS features like how to change the default mail app (https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/change-the-default-apps-iphc57feab64/ios https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/change-the-default-ap...). It's on you to look.
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  It’s not region locked, and as the sibling post notes it’s been there for a while. I’m not sure how much more simple it can be made (open Settings, tap Apps, and there it is at the top of the page). I suppose it could be possible for apps to prompt the user to change the default, but I’m honestly pretty sick of that behavior on desktop (e.g. I have several browsers installed for various reasons and they nearly all bug me about being default) and would rather not see it copied to mobile OSes too (I don’t believe Android allows apps to show such a prompt either).

jeffbee 1y ago

The "complex labyrinth" is only reinforcing the impression that you and the author of that brief are both cranks. "Email" is the top setting under "Default Apps". My iPhone doesn't even offer Apple's Mail app in that screen, probably because I deleted it, which also was not labyrinthine but actually quite trivial.

6510 1y ago
home screen > settings > default apps > email Easy if you know where to look. If you end up in the wrong sub menu you might simply search the web for instructions. Apple provides web pages where they explain how to use the iphone. There is a section called "mail" under "apps" that shows up in the search results. It really wants me to read the help in dutch, the "apps > mail" section has 14 pages that don't talk about changing the default app, in stead they explain how to use the various features of their own mail app (that is also configured by default) I don't get why the help pages need a different menu structure. One has to go to "personalize your iphone" which has 18 pages, changing default apps is towards the end. Searching the Dutch help website for "mail" I get only 3 unhelpful search results. If i change it to US English it immediately redirects to Dutch again. lol? Using the "English" for Latin America and the Caribbean works. There I get 5 pages worth of results. Changing the default app is on page 3. Not impossible but it is not a simple prompt on launch of the app "Banana mail is not currently your default email client. Do you want to set Banana mail as your default app for sending email?" I'm quite dense of course, if they are going to be like that I will NEVER create an email client for this platform. The web and their TOS is full of good reasons to never create an app for iphone. In a laps of sanity I created a pwa one time. I've explained to exactly one user how to add the option to add a web app to the home screen to the menu so that they can add a web app to the home screen. It was a really hard sell and it took a long time. I of course had to laugh at myself for acting against my better judgement. Imagine someone made a web app email client and tried to compete with the build in client. Then in the middle of the struggle apple jokes about discontinuing PWA. Seems a pretty level playing field?
- efitz 1y ago
  > Easy if you know where to look. If you end up in the wrong sub menu you might simply search the web for instructions. Actually, at the very top of the home page of the settings app is a search bar. If you type in anything reasonable (default, email, mail) then one of the first 2-3 results will be “default apps” or “default email”.

BugsJustFindMe 1y ago

Except that those claims feel like intentional exaggerations and not meaningfully true? I use both iOS and Android. > It is only through a complex labyrinth of settings I have no love for the way iOS settings are done, but calling the setting for this in particular a complex labyrinth is some pretty blatant editorializing. > A user’s default calendar is Apple Calendar, and the default cannot be modified I don't think this is a true statement? My default calendar is a Google calendar. Actually switching to instead use my Apple iCloud calendar has been something of a chore.

jajuuka 1y ago

I'm just baffled how if we look at Microsoft or Google everyone agrees that the tyranny of the default is a problem. Then it comes to Apple and we get statements like "no, I love that I have no choice." It's frustrating.