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A CarFax for Used PCs; Hewlett Packard wants to give old laptops new life
- llimos 1y agoHP laptops don't last 3 years these days. You're lucky to get past 1. They haven't made anything good for years now.
- mock-possum 1y agohow does the adage go - “invent a problem, then sell the solution?” We see you, HP.
- trollbridge 1y ago"CarFax for used PCs" is a silly analogy; a used machine can quickly be assessed for its current condition, and a log of past repairs isn't really relevant, particularly when most repairs these days are just replacing the entire motherboard. Old laptops are not particularly valuable because (a) they might be a lot slower than a new, base-model laptop at a quite affordable price, and (b) much of modern electronics has a design life of 3-5 years, and a used laptop will generally be at the end of that design life. Nobody really likes laptops which have random components fail and need replaced. With that said, we happily use used laptops, some much older than 5 years. HP supplying a "Carfax" would have zero utility to us.
- graemep 1y agoI have used laptops for much longer too, and for a lot of tasks performance does not matter. Desktops tend to be better when older though. There are already dealer who sell second hand machines in reasonably dependable condition. HP seems to be aiming to control (note the bits about preventing unauthorised access) rather than facilitating the market.
- bcraven 1y agoWhilst you may have used them, this is referring to an enterprise setting where devices are usually replaced at the end of the warranty. Indeed, this is the point. When that business is done with it you can buy it, know how well-used it is, and give it a second life.
- Dylan16807 1y agoKnowing how well-used a laptop is barely matters. And I still need to examine and test it.
- graemep 1y ago> Indeed, this is the point. When that business is done with it you can buy it, know how well-used it is, and give it a second life That is exactly what the dealers I referred to do. The biggest thing HP seems to be adding here is a process for getting additional information that they control. Why should it need authorisation to read this information? The state of a piece of hardware should be openly and easily visible to its owner or possessor.
- mattmaroon 1y agoThis is pretty clearly just an attempt to look like they are doing something about a perceived problem without actually doing something about it.
- throitallaway 1y agoYeah, with used vehicles there's a lot more at stake. Mainly: potential safety concerns and they can cost tens of thousands of dollars. Neither of those are true with used laptops, and in cases where it may be they're not putting used equipment into service. HP has invented a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
- sandworm101 1y agoCarfax for Cars is also a bit of a joke. It is designed for people who don't know anything about cars and/or are too intimidated by the process to get a proper inspection done. So the analogy holds for laptops. This is for low-knowledge people who want some nebulous/vague reassurance that a particular laptop is still "good" even though used.
- sergius 1y agoIsn't that caller eBay?
- 999900000999 1y agoSeems like a horrible invasion of privacy for very little benefit. The logs are stored on an SSD , which is literally the only part you need to replace when donating or reselling a PC. Any enterprise company should have a policy ensuring SSD destruction. Most laptops will last a long time assuming they aren't abused. I guess the SSD wears out, but that's a 50$ part.
- yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago> Any enterprise company should have a policy ensuring SSD destruction. Why? Drives should already be encrypted, at which point you just lose the key and it's unrecoverable.
- jeroenhd 1y agoI wouldn't: https://www.bitdefender.com/en-us/blog/hotforsecurity/researchers-crack-disk-encryption-in-popular-samsung-and-crucial-ssds https://www.bitdefender.com/en-us/blog/hotforsecurity/resear... I don't trust HP firmware to wake the laptop from sleep in one attempt, let alone trust them to securely store their telemetry (that they won't let me see directly).
- yjftsjthsd-h 1y agoThe problem was that > BitLocker essentially trusts self-encrypted drives to do their job, and defaults to the drive”s hardware encryption. But that was 2018; the result was that in 2019 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/september-24-2019-kb4516045-os-build-17134-1039-61bec2d8-590a-31f9-038d-3680bac48b30 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/september-24-2019-... happened: > Changes the default setting for BitLocker when encrypting a self-encrypting hard drive. Now, the default is to use software encryption for newly encrypted drives. For existing drives, the type of encryption will not change. And in any event, I would tend to argue that the matter of reselling is secondary: The problem is that the affected disks are effectively unencrypted, and that's a problem regardless. If your disks are properly encrypted, then reselling them should be safe.
- mrweasel 1y agoFor people outside the US (maybe?), CarFax has no meaning, so the analogy is a bit confusing. The whole thing make no sense. They plan to store the report on the SSD (but not just any SSD, an HP SSD), so that the telemetry is retained between operating system install. I'll give them points for doing on device data collection, but what if I replace the SSD? Maybe they don't plan on making that user replaceable, but that would work against what they are trying to do here. Honestly if HP cared they would make the device more easily serviceable by the end users, and upgradable. Even that doesn't matter a great deal, beyond having companies slow down their upgrade cycle slightly, there's no real gain. Right now I'm looking at used laptops, but the local refurb place have apparently scraped all their laptops that are unable to run Windows 11. Without the software companies putting in a bigger effort to keep old devices viable for longer I don't really see who's suppose to buy all these old HP computers.
- alexpotato 1y agoThis reminds me of an old story about Hertz and Ford Mustangs. Goes something like this: - Ford makes the original Mustang (which everyone loves) - Ford makes different versions of the Mustang (some more powerful than others e.g. the Shelby) - Hertz had a special custom Shelby model made for them - You could rent that special model from Hertz - So, people would buy a lower end Mustang, rent the higher end Mustang from Hertz, swap out the engines and return the Hertz Mustang There is actually a lot of extra detail in this article if people are interested: https://www.motorcities.org/story-of-the-week/2024/remembering-the-1966-shelby-mustang-gt350h-rent-a-racer https://www.motorcities.org/story-of-the-week/2024/rememberi...
- tedunangst 1y ago"People" could really use a number attached to it.
- stonogo 1y agohttps://www.hagerty.com/media/automotive-history/legends-of-the-gt350h-fact-fiction-and-hertzs-rent-a-racer/ https://www.hagerty.com/media/automotive-history/legends-of-...
- bigyabai 1y agoThis is the sort of thing that gets developed for benevolent reasons, and then deployed as an excuse to outlaw any third-party servicing as dishonest log manipulation.
- msgodel 1y agoWow HP is the last company I would expect to get this right.
- stefan_ 1y agoHP is literally the company that will charge a laptop battery to 100% by default for a little bit more runtime on a random product test but exponentially less longevity. All the shitty HP office laptops at my last job would without fail have a bloated battery within 3 years, often taking the touchpad and other components with it.
- ok123456 1y agoIs there any value added here? Carfax exists because of the possibility of buying a car with extensive damage that looks cosmetically ok. Additionally, the service records they collect indicate that a vehicle has undergone regular maintenance. Computers, for the most part, aren't getting in major accidents and reentering the stream of commerce. Additionally, there's no significant mechanical maintenance required, except for blowing compressed air if the environment is dirty.
- fred_is_fred 1y agoThe other purpose of a CarFax is to validate or attempt to validate that the mileage reported is accurate or not. Is there an equivalent of mileage for a CPU or motherboard?
- ok123456 1y agoPeople aren't forging SMART drive diagnostics. These are <$100 components anyway.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- kube-system 1y agoSMART stats are cleared on secondhand or "refurbished" drives quite frequently e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42864788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42864788
- bigfatkitten 1y agoBIOS on Panasonic Toughbooks reports total power-on hours. This is independent of the HDD/SSD’s SMART reported runtime. You can view this as a normal user, but it can’t be reset by mortals.
- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y agoThis, I think, is the part that confuses me. While there is a level of uncertainty, when buying used computer, the cost tends to magnitude smaller than a new car and even for fancish lappies likely sub 1k ( maybe that changes when we start accounting for gaming laptops, but those are unlikely to be corporate fleet, which I assume is the consideration here? ). I initially though HP found some new way to fleece data out of its users, but looking at what is proposed, I don't see anything that obviously bad so I am lost here too. And this is all before we get to how difficult HP has gotten to repair. My last HP ( consumer grade after which I swore no personal HP machines ever ) did everything short of soldering hdd to the board ( ridiculous placement, non-standard screws ). The idea has some, limited merit, but I just don't see it being useful.
- neilv 1y ago> By embedding telemetry capabilities directly within the firmware, we ensure that device health and usage data is captured the moment it is collected. This data is stored securely on HP SSD drives, leveraging hardware-based security measures to protect against unauthorized access or manipulation. What I see are more technological affordances for closed firmware behavior of the device, increasing complexity, and providing additional opportunity for, and cover for, secret surveillance, backdoors, and other malware. The used laptop market is very healthy already, and sellers already make money doing their own n-point tests before selling. Some use turn-key diagnostics software packages that work with the state of the laptop as it is (and drive SMART data). It's worked fine, AFAIK. I've personally bought and used ~40 used laptops, mostly from random sellers on eBay, and not knowing the laptop's dating history hasn't been a barrier. The only significant, rare problems have been dirt and strange odors, which presumably aren't sensed and recorded in this "telemetry".
- BrenBarn 1y agoAll my laptops have been used ThinkPads, and I'm on my. . . fifth? And yeah, they've all been fine. The exception is the battery, which can sometimes turn out to quickly become very weak.
- happymellon 1y agoBut unlike certain other manufacturers, I've never had an issue replacing parts of Thinkpads including batteries. Even newer models.
- hulitu 1y agoThey really need every piece of data they can gather. It sells well
- dietr1ch 1y ago> > What I see are more technological affordances for closed firmware behavior of the device, increasing complexity, and providing additional opportunity for, and cover for, secret surveillance, backdoors, and other malware. All this surveillance just in case you want to have an easier time selling a laptop. I'd rather have this time spent building a better laptop that sells itself because it's a battery swap and a CPU re-paste away from feeling like new.
- OtherShrezzing 1y agoI think the main problem with old laptops being discarded is one of software & OS release cadence more than hardware relatability. My accountant has used the same 4 apps since the turn of the century. Yet the industry has created a situation where they’ve needed to buy 10 new computers to keep up, even though they still just use email, spreadsheets, web, and a word processor. They’d happily be in XP if it were still on offer. The only meaningful productivity boost from the hardware side of things for the overwhelming majority of knowledge workers over the period was the introduction of SSDs and wireless network cards.
- bongodongobob 1y agoNonsense. My last two desktop PCs lasted me 15 years. If they need a new laptop annually, they are the problem.
- ethan_smith 1y agoModern OS vendors could easily create lightweight versions optimized for older hardware with reduced telemetry and simplified UI layers, extending usable lifespans by years without compromising core functionality.
- DesiLurker 1y agoHP is circling the drain! if they have to resort to rentseeking crap like this then they are already out of high ROI revenue streams.
- juris 1y agoI'll trust that this is genuine when HP lets me connect 3rd party ink cartridges to their printers.
- mikeocool 1y agoWhat exactly would this report reveal? Laptops that have some sort gremlin in them resulting in lots of repairs over time? If I worked for an organization that deployed or sold large numbers of used PCs -- and that problem cropped up frequently enough to matter, I think my take away would be: "let's stop deploying/selling used HP laptops and switch to a more reliable brand," not "let's try to use this fancy reporting to identify them before they get deployed."
- jamesgill 1y agoHaving access to fine-grained usage and health information for each device in their fleet can help IT managers decide which devices are sent to which users, as well as when maintenance is scheduled Based only my own experience in large enterprises, the usual process is to EOL new laptops after about three years, regardless of condition. There's a whole sandwich of business and financial agreements built around this, so this 'fine-grained data' doesn't seem very useful (or necessary). If HP really wanted to make an environmental impact, why not start an HP recycling/refurbishment program?
- michaelt 1y agoRight, but you have some laptops coming back from leaving workers. Laptops issued to interns. Windows laptops issued to people who come back and say they need Linux. Laptops loaned to people while their main laptop was being repaired. And of course the dreaded no-fault-found returns. Of course you wouldn't want to be locked in to HP hardware only. And hopefully you've got an endpoint management tool which is gathering at least some of this data anyway...
- kube-system 1y ago> When buying a used car, dealerships and individual buyers can access each car’s particular CarFax report, detailing the vehicle’s usage and maintenance history. Armed with this information, dealerships can perform the necessary fixes or upgrades before re-selling the car. Dealerships in no way use those reports for that reason, nor do they contain the information that would be necessary to do so. They inspect the car to determine its mechanical condition, and query manufacturer databases to determine if recall repairs are necessary. CarFax reports are a marketing tool to assuage concerns that used-car buyers have about inadvertently purchasing a lemon.
- JayGuerette 1y agoAbout 8y ago we were looking at a used Mini Cooper. Car Fax reported no major problems. I went to the bank to get a loan. They reported 2 minor and 1 major accident that the car had been in that were NOT reported by Car Fax. Once we knew where to look we were able to see evidence of the damage & repairs to the car. I think that if lending institutions don't trust Car Fax then we probably shouldn't either.
- lwn 1y agoThis feels to me like HP is trying to formalize a whole new business around second-hand hardware — not just selling off returns, but really building a controlled ecosystem for trade-ins, refurb, and resale. My guess is they want to keep that value in-house rather than letting third-party refurbishers or resellers capture it. The Carfax reference stood out to me. It seems more like a feel-good marketing move than anything with real substance — just enough to trigger that association of “trusted, inspected, certified.” Not necessarily bad, but definitely more about perception than transparency. Overall, I think they’re trying to rebrand “used hardware” into something safe, premium, and profitable — under the HP umbrella, of course.
- Hasz 1y agoCertified Pre-Owned programs. I am surprised they are starting with Laptops. IMO, it makes more sense to start with servers. They are car-priced assets, and stand much more to gain from a multi-point inspection versus a laptop. They are also less likely to suffer from long term damage damage, such as water damage. Slap another 5 years of hardware support on it and resell for 20% above the used market. Many small and medium size enterprises will happily take you up on that offer. For example, typical dell hardware support is 5-7 years, the systems are still usable for several years after hardware support ends.
- verall 1y agoHPE is very happy with off-lease server HW only being sold on ebay and appearing as sketchy as possible. The margins are really high on server HW - offering HW support on systems sold at 20% above the used market under their brand name would cannibalize their core business so it will never happen. But in consumer space, margins are very low, and so there is money to be made reselling used HW at a premium, so they will try.
- Ekaros 1y agoThere is difference of usage patterns between servers and laptops. Servers are most likely run nearly entire duration they are used or leased. Maybe not loaded, but is not massive difference. On other hand laptops might spend significant time being turned off. Or their usage patterns might affect batteries. Like how deep they were drawn. In that sense getting more telemetry on laptops is much more useful.
- theyinwhy 1y ago100% of the companies I work(ed) with have either a "destroy laptop" or "destroy data storage media" policy. I know 0 companies reselling their used computers with storage media included.
- bongodongobob 1y agoIT insurance usually requires you dispose of storage media through an accredited company as well, which is usually why this is done. We wanted to donate old laptops to charity but our insurance forbids it.
- 6d6b73 1y agoThe images contain date of the example report - 2023. Can we assume that the current HP laptops already gather all that information and store them, and the new "feature" is just a new way of extracting money from something they are already doing?
- bluSCALE4 1y agoAnother reason HP is irrelevant. They pour money into stupid ideas no one is interested in. I'm curious what HP would think about the Acer C740 I recently reformatted and reflashed so I could directly into Linux. Would they "restore" it to its EOL state, undoing that work I did? My money is on yes because corporations don't know shit about PC building or optimal settings.
- knowitnone 1y agoHP has 0 incentive to give old laptops new life if they don't profit from it. People who buy used laptops are already doing so. Yes, there are somes risks but if the computer boots up, perhaps run a few performance tests, then it's good. A used laptop is $100 - $500, not $2000 - $10000 and it most likely is not sold multiple times because after teh second owner, it's likely already too old, too slow, and not supported (Microsoft). I was a seller of used laptops.
- 6d6b73 1y agoThe images contain date of the example report - 2023. Can we assume that the current HP laptops already gather all that information and store them, and the new "feature" is just a new way of extracting money from something they are already doing
- cush 1y agoJust imagine for a moment what this would look like in reality... "I was going to take your original offer of $220 for this here used HP laptop, but after looking at the high number of writes to the SSD on PCFax, I can't do better than $180." What a bizarre initiative. CarFax was started in the 80's to combat odometer fraud. Cars need CarFax because they're expensive and have thousands of moving parts
- sandworm101 1y agoEvery time I've tried to sell and/or give away my previous laptop, I discovered that nobody wants anything more than a few years old. A 6yo Acer laptop, that isn't running the latest windows, is basically worthless even in the eyes of charities. And a used laptop running linux, regardless of age, seems to be unwanted by everyone.
- theandrewbailey 1y agoI work in the refurb division of an e-waste recycling company. This comes off as somewhat disingenuous coming from HP, whose laptops constitute about 90% of the BIOS passworded systems we get. We can't do anything with a laptop that we can't adjust the boot order or disable secure boot on, and the value of completely disassembling, de-soldering, and flashing the BIOS chip of a laptop that would only go for ~$100 is dubious. (We've tried everything short of that.) This is particularly painful when I just today went though a lot of over 100 HP Elitebooks with 8th and 10th gen i5 CPUs. (That's plenty usable for most people.) I could sell these for $100-150 each (~$15,000 total, of which I would get 10% commission on), but since they're all BIOS locked, they're worth little more than scrap. Take the RAM and SSD out and move on.
- kome 1y agothey sure know how to complicate simple stuff
- late2part 1y agoSolution in search of a problem...
- M95D 1y agoOther people noted this is a very bad privacy issue. Just thinking: since when laptop manufacturers encourage reuse instead of buying new? It would lower sales! I belive user tracking is the real purpose of this tech. It would have the ability to track the user no matter what OS is installed. Windows does tracking, Google does tracking, all websites have tracking, and now they want a piece of the pie too. PCFax is just a disguise - an alterative purpose more acceptable to the public than what it really is. And now, thinking ahead: what would be the next logical step for them? Ad popups directly from the firmware?
- Ylpertnodi 1y ago>And now, thinking ahead: what would be the next logical step for them? Ad popups directly from the firmware? Reports sent to 'someone', if you look up abortion clinics? Careful with that axe, Eugene/ Eugenia..
- crusty 1y agoOn topic / off topic: This has me thinking about the current state of user replaceable internals. I wonder to what extent the structure of corporate laptop fleet management ( ie. Lease and return less the ssd because... security) dictated which components could and couldn't be soldered down, versus a happy coincidence of potential gains, as the ssd has the least to gain by being soldered? But even if it did, would the requirements of Big Inc. have prevented that? And for those that do solder their storage, have there been ramifications in accessing this market? Do companies with strict policies on data loss risks have black lists for devices with soldered storage? I'm guessing it's hard to use apple as a comparison point here because it was never really welcome in corporate fleets.