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Eh, you really don't want a car without ABS, though. For motorcycles, I kinda get it since you can't do some stunts with ABS, but on a car, it has zero benefit

by lan321 1y ago

Eh, you really don't want a car without ABS, though. For motorcycles, I kinda get it since you can't do some stunts with ABS, but on a car, it has zero benefit nowadays. Mandatory ABS, seatbelts and airbags would be the big things for me, followed by sexy, modern ESP, TC for powerful RWD cars and collision warning beeper (no autobrake at high speed, that shit's deadly and I hate that it can't be permanently disabled separate to the beeper).

bumby 1y ago
My point is that the features are there because a regulatory body has made it a requirement. It doesn’t mean it’s a bad requirement.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  Then I think your point is wrong for ABS. Yes it's required but in almost all cases I bet it's not there because it's required.
  - bumby 1y ago
    That’s the circular part. It’s required because it’s a safety issue. I think that’s the intent behind almost all mandatory sensors. That’s why the post put “useless” in quotes. I’m highlighting just that it may be required because it’s needed for safety. However, many motorcycles have ABS as optional equipment and many people (non-stunters) don’t opt in for it. Meaning, many people don’t recognize (or don’t care enough to pay) the safety aspect.
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      Using ABS sensors to justify new regulation is a circular argument if those ABS sensors were installed because of regulation. I was arguing otherwise, that ABS would be installed in a big majority of cars no matter what, and that gives a non-circular argument. Looking up some data, it was about 75% of cars and rising in 2007, so not as high as I expected but still pretty high. There's some circularity but I'd say it's mostly not circular.
      - bumby 1y ago
        I posted that they are installed for legal reasons. The other commenter posted that less sensors are required because they piggyback on another system. That other system is also legally required. That is a circular rationale because it’s still pointing to a legally mandated sensor. Nearly all new cars have ABS due to safety mandates.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        > I posted that they are installed for legal reasons. Yes you did. How can I make it clearer that I disagree. > That is a circular rationale because it’s still pointing to a legally mandated sensor. It's circular if the legal mandate is why those sensors are installed. If they'd be installed anyway then it's not circular.
        bumby 1y ago
        You seem to imply that the legal and safety are independent. I am saying they are linked. Ie there wouldn’t be a legal reason if it weren’t for the safety reason. So pointing to the safety is why it’s a circular argument. It’s like disagreeing that smoke detectors are because they are legally required in homes because people want them anyway for safety reasons. Both can be true at the same time because they both are related to the same risk mitigation. In any event, the OP was that some people don’t want those sensors, my point is they aren’t optional.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        > So pointing to the safety is why it’s a circular argument. You're confusing me. How about I explain my understanding of what makes things circular. Generic hypothetical: Regulation requires a part. Cars put the part in because of regulation. Later, people amending the regulations consider something else that requires that part, and they justify it as having negligible cost because that part is already in cars. Because that part is there from regulation, it's to a strong extent regulation justifying itself, and it's circular. Does your understanding of circularity differ from that? Now, consider a variant: Regulation requires a part. But it doesn't matter because cars have that part anyway. Later, people amending the regulations consider something else that requires that part, and they justify it as having negligible cost because that part is already in cars. Because that part is not there from regulation, it's not regulation justifying itself, and it's not circular. Does that make sense? You could imagine the part is "wheels" for the variant. Regulations that imply wheels are not using circular arguments when they say 'cars have wheels anyway, that's not a cost of this regulation'.
    - kisper 1y ago
      I never thought about ABS while purchasing my little 250cc Kawasaki Ninja about 20 years ago, but in retrospect, I wish I had it! Skidding isn’t as bad for vehicles with 3+ wheels; they stay upright, at least. It had rained earlier that evening, and for whatever reason (skill, pavement change, oily film on the road surface, etc) when I braked before a turn the back-end slipped out from under me. Luckily, I walked away with just a sprained shoulder, broken thumb, and a spot on my kneecap worn down to the bone. I thankfully was wearing riding gloves, helmet, and boots; the pavement wore through several layers of the leather, my hands would have been shredded like my knee, or worse.

by lan321 1y ago

bumby 1y ago

My point is that the features are there because a regulatory body has made it a requirement. It doesn’t mean it’s a bad requirement.

Dylan16807 1y ago
Then I think your point is wrong for ABS. Yes it's required but in almost all cases I bet it's not there because it's required.
- bumby 1y ago
  That’s the circular part. It’s required because it’s a safety issue. I think that’s the intent behind almost all mandatory sensors. That’s why the post put “useless” in quotes. I’m highlighting just that it may be required because it’s needed for safety. However, many motorcycles have ABS as optional equipment and many people (non-stunters) don’t opt in for it. Meaning, many people don’t recognize (or don’t care enough to pay) the safety aspect.
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    Using ABS sensors to justify new regulation is a circular argument if those ABS sensors were installed because of regulation. I was arguing otherwise, that ABS would be installed in a big majority of cars no matter what, and that gives a non-circular argument. Looking up some data, it was about 75% of cars and rising in 2007, so not as high as I expected but still pretty high. There's some circularity but I'd say it's mostly not circular.
    - bumby 1y ago
      I posted that they are installed for legal reasons. The other commenter posted that less sensors are required because they piggyback on another system. That other system is also legally required. That is a circular rationale because it’s still pointing to a legally mandated sensor. Nearly all new cars have ABS due to safety mandates.
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        > I posted that they are installed for legal reasons. Yes you did. How can I make it clearer that I disagree. > That is a circular rationale because it’s still pointing to a legally mandated sensor. It's circular if the legal mandate is why those sensors are installed. If they'd be installed anyway then it's not circular.
        bumby 1y ago
        You seem to imply that the legal and safety are independent. I am saying they are linked. Ie there wouldn’t be a legal reason if it weren’t for the safety reason. So pointing to the safety is why it’s a circular argument. It’s like disagreeing that smoke detectors are because they are legally required in homes because people want them anyway for safety reasons. Both can be true at the same time because they both are related to the same risk mitigation. In any event, the OP was that some people don’t want those sensors, my point is they aren’t optional.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        > So pointing to the safety is why it’s a circular argument. You're confusing me. How about I explain my understanding of what makes things circular. Generic hypothetical: Regulation requires a part. Cars put the part in because of regulation. Later, people amending the regulations consider something else that requires that part, and they justify it as having negligible cost because that part is already in cars. Because that part is there from regulation, it's to a strong extent regulation justifying itself, and it's circular. Does your understanding of circularity differ from that? Now, consider a variant: Regulation requires a part. But it doesn't matter because cars have that part anyway. Later, people amending the regulations consider something else that requires that part, and they justify it as having negligible cost because that part is already in cars. Because that part is not there from regulation, it's not regulation justifying itself, and it's not circular. Does that make sense? You could imagine the part is "wheels" for the variant. Regulations that imply wheels are not using circular arguments when they say 'cars have wheels anyway, that's not a cost of this regulation'.
  - kisper 1y ago
    I never thought about ABS while purchasing my little 250cc Kawasaki Ninja about 20 years ago, but in retrospect, I wish I had it! Skidding isn’t as bad for vehicles with 3+ wheels; they stay upright, at least. It had rained earlier that evening, and for whatever reason (skill, pavement change, oily film on the road surface, etc) when I braked before a turn the back-end slipped out from under me. Luckily, I walked away with just a sprained shoulder, broken thumb, and a spot on my kneecap worn down to the bone. I thankfully was wearing riding gloves, helmet, and boots; the pavement wore through several layers of the leather, my hands would have been shredded like my knee, or worse.