7 ms·

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more)

• adrianmoses 1y ago
  Just curious: Where's the source of this "reality check" and what's your agenda?
  • enraged_camel 1y ago
    They do not have a source. This happens on HN constantly: someone shits on the article with no basis in reality and no source, and their comment gets voted to the top and dominates the discussion.
  • alephnerd 1y ago
    Not OP, but you can use the BLS's CPI calculator. Their numbers are right [0] Implying that OP is "Assuming an agenda" appears to break the HN guidelines [1] [0] - https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=202501&year2=200505 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=20... [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
• foobarian 1y ago
  Not to mention how much more functionality present day cars have. (mentioned in a couple comments elsewhere, but things like airbags/backup cameras/other sensors etc).
  • willsmith72 1y ago
    Well of course, but tech gets cheaper over time too. Just look at the price and power of today's MacBook air vs 10 years ago. You get way more value for money as you should
    • HumanOstrich 1y ago
      Do you buy 10-year-old tech like MacBook Airs so you can take advantage of the cost savings?
      • dghlsakjg 1y ago
        Not the OP, but I do buy used computers for cost savings.
  • happosai 1y ago
    All cars have become a lot more bigger. I was just watching the movie Jewel of the Nile on Disney+. There was a scene, where a dictator and the protagonists cram into to Rolls Royce of 80s and I just thought the average suv these days has more interior space... While flight travel has got cheaper by making seats more compact and planes more efficient, the cars go the opposite direction - drive luxuriously like kings and burn the planet with bigger and bigger gas guzzlers...
    • potato3732842 1y ago
      That 80s car probably has comparable interior space. It's the exterior that's gotten bigger. 7" thick doors and all that.
  • pif 1y ago
    Cars have much more functionality these days, and it is good. But too much of that functionality is mandatory, and this is bad.
    • mitthrowaway2 1y ago
• kachapopopow 1y ago
  I think people are saying that you can't find a used car for cheap anymore more than anything.
  • dylan604 1y ago
    After the supply chain crisis which saw used car prices look like new car prices, the used market really never came back to a sane level. I also wonder how many people are in the market for cars old enough to not have all of the telemetry tracking, "everything is computer" touchscreen nonsense which could be having an effect on the supply/demand of that part of the used car market. I recently bought a car specifically with those features in mind.
    • GFischer 1y ago
      The used car pricing in the USA used to be bizarrely cheap, it's now corrected or overcorrected.
    • xienze 1y ago
      Cash for Clunkers is what really kickstarted the distortion of the used car market.
    • scottLobster 1y ago
      Nah, it's price. Issue was every manufacturer slashed production during the pandemic either intentionally or due to parts shortages, so cars built during the pandemic years are abnormally scarce. Add in that used car loans always have higher interest rates than new car loans, if you're buying with anything other than cash there still isn't that much of a discount on gently used/certified vs new. You have to really go back a few years or get a relatively high mileage before you start finding cheap options again.
• csomar 1y ago
  > - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) You'll need to provide hard evidence for this. I was pretty young in 2005 but $15.000 would get you a decent car (though not a pickup). That being said, it is possible we have more models now under 25.000 but what $15/25k used to buy you (segment wise) has downgraded.
  • mberning 1y ago
    You are 100% correct. I was a senior in college and my beater died. I went to the Mazda dealer and talked them down to $13k on a brand new Mazda3. My payment was like $280. Now inflation adjusted that is supposedly just shy of $22k. But it’s not the full story. That car was actually very nice for the time and to get an equivalently nice car today it’s not going to be a bare bones Nissan Versa or something like that.
    • jjice 1y ago
      To share an anecdote on the more recent side of the spectrum, I bought a new 2025 Toyota Corolla LE two months ago. It's probably the cheapest vehicle Toyota makes. My cost before tax and title (not sure if that should be included or not) was $23k. It's a pretty great car. Highway averages like 45-50 MPH (25-35 city), it's comfortable, has Car Play, and everything else you'd expect in a car now. I'll say that the two things I'm used to having in a car that this one doesn't (since it's such a base trim) is automatic seat adjustment (not a big deal, I kind of prefer it since the automatic seats on my last vehicle died) and no remote start. All that to say that I think that inflation adjusted measure can still get you a fine car. As for the argument about income vs inflation in GP, I have no idea.
      • csomar 1y ago
        I think the problem here is that we are comparing against price inflation (not salary inflation). If every company increased its prices, then that's the inflation. Customers will feel ripped off if their salaries didn't at least match inflation. In other words, if your salary in 2005 was $50k when Mazda was $13k; then your salary should be $82k for a $22k Mazda3 to be the same price. Currently, a Mazda3 starts at $24k and will probably run at $26-27k: https://www.mazdausa.com/vehicles/mazda3-sedan https://www.mazdausa.com/vehicles/mazda3-sedan > All that to say that I think that inflation adjusted measure can still get you a fine car. As for the argument about income vs inflation in GP, I have no idea. Kind of. But my understanding is that most salaries haven't caught up to inflation especially in the last few years when the US economy had the worst inflation.
• reliabilityguy 1y ago
  While I do agree with you, I think you have to account for income as well, and not only the car price (even if adjusted for inflation) to determine affordability.
  • giantg2 1y ago
    Pretty sure inflation adjusted median income has increased from 2005 to 2025. But it sure doesn't feel like it. I wonder if other costs such as housing and healthcare have gotten less affordable affecting the real affordability. Inflation adjustments should capture this, but it feels like it doesn't.
    • Mistletoe 1y ago
      Yes. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/why-do-education-health-care-and https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/why-do-education-health-care-a...
    • km144 1y ago
      Housing, healthcare, childcare, and education have become more expensive. These are the biggest expenses for most people and are necessities. So the percentage of income available for other expenses has definitely decreased. Not sure about real wages though.
      • giantg2 1y ago
        In theory, inflation is supposed to capture those increases. The median real wage has gone up about 10-15% from 2005-2025. In theory, it should be more affordable. It doesn't feel that way to me, but maybe there are numbers I'm missing, or the way we measure inflation and apply it to affordability is broken.
    • TaupeRanger 1y ago
      Yes, this measure is called "Real Wages" and has been increasing basically since 2013 (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q). But as you point out, that measure uses CPI, which doesn't weigh mortgage/rent and healthcare affordability as heavily it would need to match what the average family experiences.
• weberer 1y ago
  >adjusted by inflation So the affordability crisis completely disappears once you adjust for the #1 thing that's been making things unaffordable.
  • sroussey 1y ago
    Yes, my father bought a house for $10k. He still says it was very expensive!
  • senko 1y ago
    Of course, you should be adjusting for the wage rise instead. FRED figures show wages slightly outpaced inflation: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q (unless I'm reading the chart incorrectly)
• greenavocado 1y ago
  There are a bunch of nice Toyotas in the USA with MSRP just under 25K right now, including the Corolla Hybrid, which is pretty sweet considering how fuel efficient it is. https://www.toyota.com/ https://www.toyota.com/
• monkeyelite 1y ago
  - boomers like classic sports and muscle cars. They feel nostalgia towards them because those are the cars high school and college kids used to actually drive - people who are looking for affordable cars buy used. That market has evaporated. I remember in the late 90s-2000s the newspaper had a junker section where you could get cars (that started) for $100. Imagine what you could get for $2000 - when inflation goes up you lose savings and don’t necessarily get a corresponding wage increase. So just saying it’s equal according to inflation does not mean it’s equal in terms of work hours or job training requirements
  • slackfan 1y ago
    Cash for Clunkers was a hell of a program.
    • monkeyelite 1y ago
      I have been thinking more about that recently. It’s very strange we convinced ourselves we were being economically efficient while destroying productive resources.
      • bigfishrunning 1y ago
        Not everyone was convinced -- it was pretty transparently 1) a subsidy to the car industry 2) an effort to hasten the proliferation of in-car surveillance tech
• pif 1y ago
  Are you talking about real cars or toy cars? As an example, any vehicle with less than 4 places is a toy car. And anything as uncomfortable as a Toyota Prius is a stupid toy car.
• insane_dreamer 1y ago
  > HN deserves better data-driven discussions. Where's the data?
• dudeinhawaii 1y ago
  While we're being data driven - the narrative isn't far off from reality. Looking at inflation in isolation is also misleading. Plainly, prices have risen faster than pay. Avg. new-car price: $23,017 in 2005 -> $47,465 in 2024 (+32% after inflation). Median household income: $46,242 in 2005 -> $80,610 in 2023 (+12% after inflation).
  • wavemode 1y ago
    Average new car price is very misleading. When you buy a car, they don't charge you the average, they charge you what the specific car you're buying costs. If there are a dozen cheap car options for sale, it is irrelevant to me that there are also some more expensive options for sale.
    • nzealand 1y ago
      MSRP of Honda Accord went from $15k-$30k in 2005 to $30k-$40k in 2025. MSRP of one model is also not perfect, but it's another data point.
      • riku_iki 1y ago
        2005 accord is a 2025 civic class wise
        • davedunkin 1y ago
          Yep, model inflation. I have an early 2000s Accord and it's smaller than most Civics I see on the road, and with fewer features than a base model Civic.
        • josefresco 1y ago
          2005 accord is 5 inchers longer, a couple inches wider and has a longer wheelbase. This results in larger interior space and trunk space. While cars are in fact getting bigger and heavier, in this case it's not as egregious.
• thaawyy33432434 1y ago
  hard to compare 2005 ford focus or toyota corolla with 2025 model year. A lot of more feature, cars are safer etc.
  • _DeadFred_ 1y ago
    There is no 2025 Ford Focus in the US.
• atoav 1y ago
  Yes, only inflation is not the only thing you need to factor in. If you really want to answer the question of "are people correct in complaing about car prices?", you need to factor in how much money they have to spend on what. A first ballpark figure would be calculating how much that pricebracket of car would be as a fraction of a median persons income or better even: how many hours they needed to work to get it – if you want to know if something is harder to get, this is the crucial info. Just adjusting inflation like that is doing exactly what you critique others for only from the other direction..
• Justsignedup 1y ago
  Reminds me of the argument of "cars used to be more sturdy than today, where any hit is a total" Um... Looking at videos of crashing old cars into new cars, the old cars DO NOT hold up to new cars in terms of breaking. The only difference is in old cars the engine would stay intact and the occupants not, while in the new cars its the opposite.
• Glyptodon 1y ago
  I can't speak to the specific years, but there's no doubt that a fair number of small, less expensive, cars have been knocked off - the Rio, the Prius C, the Fiesta... I think there are more than just those (though maybe some of it is lineup consolidation, considering the eventual Kia K3). At the same time, some of the remaining options have had (IMO) huge MSRP hikes. But you are right that a lot of the price increases relatively track inflation. It may just be that cars going up at the rate of inflation and used cars depreciating less, combined with uneven wage growth and high maintenance and repair costs is leaving a lot of consumers feeling pressured. Though it's hard to track this down in a way that seems accurate, cars that are under 10 years old and 100k miles always seem remarkably close to MSRP to me, while those that are over those thresholds often seem massively depreciated, but that's anecdote and I haven't done a study. Interest rates me be another piece of the story. When I last bought a car they were basically zero or 1% I think. It gave the latitude to use debt w/o much thought. Very different now. Which is to say, I do think it's plausible that it's true that some segment of the car market is tracking inflation, and that cars aren't affordable any more. If that's the case, there's probably more going on, and it may not all be on the cars. Once again, venturing into anecdote, I know multiple people who've had significant wage increases since prepandemic, don't have much if any lifestyle inflation, and somehow seem to be in the position of finding cars and homes less affordable despite making quite significantly more. I'm not really sure exactly what's going on, but the way people are feeling doesn't match the numbers for a fair number of folks with above average incomes, and I can only imagine it must be a lot worse for those w/ less.
  • tlogan 1y ago
    > less expensive, cars have been > knocked off - the Rio, > the Prius C, the Fiesta.. You are incorrect. Prius C in 2005 was $21,510 (not really "less expensive") and that is about $34,827.67 in 2025. (See: https://www.kbb.com/toyota/prius/2005/ https://www.kbb.com/toyota/prius/2005/) And in 2025 Prius starts from $28,350 (see: https://www.toyota.com/prius/ https://www.toyota.com/prius/) So this narrative that there are no more cheap cars is incorrect.
    • VerminOctopus1 1y ago
• VerminOctopus1 1y ago
  Did you even read the article before making your comment? It is actually data driven like you are demanding, while your own comment is not beyond the most basic sense. A superficial count of models below $25,000k MSRP is not adding to the discussion.
  • tlogan 1y ago
    Two examples: Example 1: The article claims that the affordable Nissan Versa Note cost $16,545 in 2019 and was discontinued. But not saying that this would be $21,168 in today’s dollars and they leave out an important detail: Nissan still sells the Versa in the US, just not the Note hatchback version. The current Nissan Versa starts at $17,190 according to Nissan’s own website: https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/cars/versa-sedan.html https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/cars/versa-sedan.html That’s actually about 20% less expensive than the inflation-adjusted number from 2019. Example 2: And then they claim that price increase is: 29.2% - just 3% more than inflation (but they did not want to mention total PCI). But even that number of 29.2% cannot be verified on BLS.gov nor fred.stlouisfed.org . I uploaded FRED and BLS data to chatgpt o3 and it says that new vehicle prices increased 22% from 2019 to 2025 - actually less then inflation: 2019: 146.220 2020: 149.091 2021: 166.653 2022: 176.463 2023: 178.269 2024: 177.552 fred.stlouisfed.org (slight dip from 2023) 2025: ~178.7 (May 2025) Overall, from 2019 to mid-2025 the index increased from ~146 to ~179, amounting to about a 22% cumulative rise in new vehicle prices. (https://www.bls.gov/cpi/data.htm https://www.bls.gov/cpi/data.htm - code CUUR0000SETA01).
• dzhiurgis 1y ago
  And inflation is calculated by how much car prices increased