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I already have a frontend engineer considering switching to native iOS and Android apps just so he can get away from CSS. I am not exaggerating, that is 99% th

I already have a frontend engineer considering switching to native iOS and Android apps just so he can get away from CSS. I am not exaggerating, that is 99% the reason for his desire to abandon ship. He complains about CSS daily despite being one of the more knowledgeable people I know about CSS, save for the rare occasion he asks me a question. Why should I react to this project by doing anything other than lighting a molotov cocktail?

pcolton 14y ago
...because if he hates CSS, wait 'till he gets a load of Core Graphics and Core Animation via Objective-C just to animate a custom shape. ;-)
- ilaksh 14y ago
  I believe that Objective-C is an outdated overly complex syntax. I assume that you are correct in your implication that Core Graphics and Core Animation are overly complex. However, that does not mean that the answer is CSS. You should not need to hand-write code to lay out text on the screen or change a background color. There is a reason that UI builders have been a standard part of desktop development frameworks/environments for many, many years. CSS is the worst thing that ever happened to front end application development.
  - pcolton 14y ago
    We believe that taking something complex and adding a familiar, declarative syntax, while keeping it all 100% native, will appeal to both developers and designers. We believe so because we've asked many of them.
- randomdata 14y ago
  Animation of custom shapes seems like it would get into <canvas> territory. The canvas drawing API shares many commonalities with CoreGraphics[1], and I assume that CoreGragphics played some part in its design. A web developer should have no trouble transitioning to CoreGraphics (which, I will add, is not an Objective-C framework) in such a case. [1] If you look at the browser-based Javascript implementation of CoreGraphics (http://cappuccino.org/learn/documentation/group__coregraphics.html http://cappuccino.org/learn/documentation/group__coregraphic...), many of the CG functions are just straight-up bridges to the local functions.
sbarre 14y ago
Most of the big problems I have with CSS (as a daily user) come from supporting multiple browsers, and dealing with their variable output from the same CSS files. If the CSS syntax is used as a way of declaratively describing styles in a single controlled environment (iOS) then that's not the same thing, and I would think that it should address a lot of the headaches that browser-based CSS currently has? Plus it would (hopefully) allow the use of existing tools like LESS or SASS to provide even more control and re-use in creating the resources that go into building your iOS app.
- evoxed 14y ago
  I don't see any reason why LESS/SASS wouldn't work, provided they've ported the majority of the actual spec (comparable at least to any browser out there). Since they simply compile your code into longform CSS it doesn't actually leave any footprints.
evoxed 14y ago
I have mixed feelings about this... 1) Why in the hell would anyone want more CSS floating around their codespace? Note: This is partially addressed in "Doesn’t CSS Suck for Apps?" 2) If this becomes a thing, does that mean that everyone involved in the actual drafting of the CSS spec will finally get their shit together and treat it the way it deserves? Note: You too, browser vendors. 3) Does this mean native app developers can finally pay me for more than paper storyboards? Because then...
jenius 14y ago
I have honestly never heard of anyone not liking CSS before reading this thread, except for maybe people just starting out who don't understand it. I am an experienced front-end developer an agency and I love css when it's enhanced by a dynamic language like sass or stylus. It's quick, powerful, and easy style many elements at once and create beautiful and lightweight custom UI elements. The only thing I don't like is having to work with it cross browser, but that has nothing to do with css as a language. I studied iOS development for a few months, read a 600 page book on it, and tinkered around with it for a while and found myself begging for CSS. Native custom app interfaces seem backwards to me - the difficult of writing core graphics methods for every bevel, rounded corner, gradient etc has a lot of developers just using cut images for everything. Disclaimer, I'm way way more experienced with css than i am with core graphics - just my impressions.
- randomdata 14y ago
  I often find myself wishing for CSS widgets, so to speak. A reusable component of HTML and CSS that can be inserted without inheriting anything from the parent elements. You can achieve this if you take a lot of care, but it should be a lot easier than it is. But where CSS really falls apart is in layouts. What is just a simple equation in a native application ends up being a myriad of hacks to get things flowing right in CSS. Javascript comes with the missing pieces, but introduces its own set of problems if you try to rely on it. > the difficult of writing core graphics methods for every bevel, rounded corner, gradient etc has a lot of developers just using cut images for everything. On iOS, the QuartzCore framework provides declarative methods for those common style choices (rounded corners, gradients, etc.).
  - skyhook_mockups 14y ago
    The new CSS3 flexible box layout changes all that. It's incredibly rich and designed to obviate the need for clumsy CSS layout hacks. Check it out if you haven't already... it is the missing piece for app-like layouts for the web. The incredibly complex layouts that can be achieved with minimal CSS and no JS is astounding. Pair this with text-overflow and with ~ 50 lines of CSS and some very basic html you can achieve wonders. Not only that but it's usable today. Both webkit and gecko have very close implementations with only minor edge cases, none of which are insurmountable. Not sure about iOS support for the new layout modes.

pcolton 14y ago

...because if he hates CSS, wait 'till he gets a load of Core Graphics and Core Animation via Objective-C just to animate a custom shape. ;-)

ilaksh 14y ago
I believe that Objective-C is an outdated overly complex syntax. I assume that you are correct in your implication that Core Graphics and Core Animation are overly complex. However, that does not mean that the answer is CSS. You should not need to hand-write code to lay out text on the screen or change a background color. There is a reason that UI builders have been a standard part of desktop development frameworks/environments for many, many years. CSS is the worst thing that ever happened to front end application development.
- pcolton 14y ago
  We believe that taking something complex and adding a familiar, declarative syntax, while keeping it all 100% native, will appeal to both developers and designers. We believe so because we've asked many of them.
randomdata 14y ago
Animation of custom shapes seems like it would get into <canvas> territory. The canvas drawing API shares many commonalities with CoreGraphics[1], and I assume that CoreGragphics played some part in its design. A web developer should have no trouble transitioning to CoreGraphics (which, I will add, is not an Objective-C framework) in such a case. [1] If you look at the browser-based Javascript implementation of CoreGraphics (http://cappuccino.org/learn/documentation/group__coregraphics.html http://cappuccino.org/learn/documentation/group__coregraphic...), many of the CG functions are just straight-up bridges to the local functions.

sbarre 14y ago

Most of the big problems I have with CSS (as a daily user) come from supporting multiple browsers, and dealing with their variable output from the same CSS files. If the CSS syntax is used as a way of declaratively describing styles in a single controlled environment (iOS) then that's not the same thing, and I would think that it should address a lot of the headaches that browser-based CSS currently has? Plus it would (hopefully) allow the use of existing tools like LESS or SASS to provide even more control and re-use in creating the resources that go into building your iOS app.

evoxed 14y ago
I don't see any reason why LESS/SASS wouldn't work, provided they've ported the majority of the actual spec (comparable at least to any browser out there). Since they simply compile your code into longform CSS it doesn't actually leave any footprints.

evoxed 14y ago

I have mixed feelings about this... 1) Why in the hell would anyone want more CSS floating around their codespace? Note: This is partially addressed in "Doesn’t CSS Suck for Apps?" 2) If this becomes a thing, does that mean that everyone involved in the actual drafting of the CSS spec will finally get their shit together and treat it the way it deserves? Note: You too, browser vendors. 3) Does this mean native app developers can finally pay me for more than paper storyboards? Because then...

jenius 14y ago

I have honestly never heard of anyone not liking CSS before reading this thread, except for maybe people just starting out who don't understand it. I am an experienced front-end developer an agency and I love css when it's enhanced by a dynamic language like sass or stylus. It's quick, powerful, and easy style many elements at once and create beautiful and lightweight custom UI elements. The only thing I don't like is having to work with it cross browser, but that has nothing to do with css as a language. I studied iOS development for a few months, read a 600 page book on it, and tinkered around with it for a while and found myself begging for CSS. Native custom app interfaces seem backwards to me - the difficult of writing core graphics methods for every bevel, rounded corner, gradient etc has a lot of developers just using cut images for everything. Disclaimer, I'm way way more experienced with css than i am with core graphics - just my impressions.

randomdata 14y ago
I often find myself wishing for CSS widgets, so to speak. A reusable component of HTML and CSS that can be inserted without inheriting anything from the parent elements. You can achieve this if you take a lot of care, but it should be a lot easier than it is. But where CSS really falls apart is in layouts. What is just a simple equation in a native application ends up being a myriad of hacks to get things flowing right in CSS. Javascript comes with the missing pieces, but introduces its own set of problems if you try to rely on it. > the difficult of writing core graphics methods for every bevel, rounded corner, gradient etc has a lot of developers just using cut images for everything. On iOS, the QuartzCore framework provides declarative methods for those common style choices (rounded corners, gradients, etc.).
- skyhook_mockups 14y ago
  The new CSS3 flexible box layout changes all that. It's incredibly rich and designed to obviate the need for clumsy CSS layout hacks. Check it out if you haven't already... it is the missing piece for app-like layouts for the web. The incredibly complex layouts that can be achieved with minimal CSS and no JS is astounding. Pair this with text-overflow and with ~ 50 lines of CSS and some very basic html you can achieve wonders. Not only that but it's usable today. Both webkit and gecko have very close implementations with only minor edge cases, none of which are insurmountable. Not sure about iOS support for the new layout modes.