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We don't want affordable Chinese EVs. That's the answer here. They can build cars better, cheaper, faster than we can. Instead Ford wants to sell a 80k SUPER

We don't want affordable Chinese EVs. That's the answer here. They can build cars better, cheaper, faster than we can. Instead Ford wants to sell a 80k SUPER F-250 BIG MANN TRUCK. All for what, you to drive 10 minutes to Walmart, buy groceries and drive back. The best car is the one you don't own. No payments, insurance, parking tickets. Unfortunately most American cities are centered around driving. So much money , and space wasted on these multi ton metal boxes. In many places most(much) of the city is literally just parking spaces.

burnt-resistor 1y ago
F-450 King Ranch Super Deluxe.. all made from plastic and guaranteed not to last longer than 8 years. Most engines of new vehicles are sleeved and cannot be rebuilt in the spirit of designed for manufacturing and profits > designed for durability.
- timewizard 1y ago
  Yep. Then add in all the regulatory systems. DEF, EGR, Catalytic Converter, Turbo, 10 speed transmissions. They're all fragile and fall out of warranty coverage easily. RAM is apparently going to use plastic control arms in it's new vehicles.
paulryanrogers 1y ago
Cars are a reflection of ones personality here in the Midwest. Some grow out of it or never subscribe to the mentality. It's certainly cheaper to bicycle, weather and health permitting. Though car driving and ownership are a big cultural phenomenon, especially among men 18-50.
- 999900000999 1y ago
  Depends on the man, I’ll admit in my early twenties I meet a few partners by being car free. I legit took a girl home after I asked her if she knew why the train was late. In Amsterdam at least one of the train stations has a piano. It becomes a 3rd place were people can make friends and socialize. We don’t have many 3rd places in the US where you can exist without spending money.
  - paulryanrogers 1y ago
    Public transportation is seen as only a thing for children and/or the poor, at least in too many of my circles. Politicians and the public don't seem willing to invest to overcome the chicken and egg problem. Doesn't help that the legacy transport we do have is neglected, further harming it's reputation.
  - dzhiurgis 1y ago
    Do you have example of places with density similar to US where public transport works well? Australia has some in urban centres, but otherwise car centric. Same in NZ. Elecric bus to my place costs 8x more than driving EV (before it was taxed)
    - shakna 1y ago
      Whilst I can spiel off complaints, public transport in Australia gets my kid to and from school everyday, and myself to and from work in two different cities, everyday, without being late. (When the union isn't striking). It does seem to work.
      - dzhiurgis 1y ago
        How do you get to train station?
        BLKNSLVR 1y ago
        Not to whom you're directing your question, but I drive the short distance to the car park at the interchange/station, then catch the bus the long distance to the city. It's a great setup, and/but the very specific infrastructure[0] that I use only services maybe a quarter of the city's mid-suburbia. There's other public transport that services plenty of the rest though. Doxxing myself here, but anyway: [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-Bahn_Busway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-Bahn_Busway
        dzhiurgis 1y ago
- blharr 1y ago
  >Weather and health permitting Environment as well. In terms of "safety" it is unfortunately very risky to bike (or even walk) in my area due to the sprawling roads everywhere. Drivers don't look out for anything other than large boxes, and I've quickly had way too many close calls to consider it useful.
- supertrope 1y ago
  I can hear street racing noises from a highway three miles away! I used to think it was just a few blocks away because I could hear it but I looked at a map. A few people install aftermarket exhausts/noise makers critics call "fart cans." After a recent police crackdown the amount of racing noise at night decreased greatly.
clickety_clack 1y ago
I make pretty good tech money and I can’t imagine spending that much on a car. It would be cheaper to uber everywhere I went.
- marssaxman 1y ago
  Likewise - it's funny to me that $25,000 is cited as an "affordable" price for a car, when that's almost double what I spent on the most expensive car I've ever owned (a Land Rover Discovery II, which was a lovely machine). I cannot imagine what it would feel like to look at a $60,000 price tag and think, "yes, this would be a sensible use of money".
  - interloxia 1y ago
    Weren't they almost 60k in 2025 dollars when they were new?
    - marssaxman 1y ago
      I suppose they were, but mine was a 2001 model and I bought it in 2007.
  - msgodel 1y ago
    Man I felt bad spending $5k to swap out my used corolla for a used highlander.
  - dumbledoren 1y ago
    $60,000 is a sensible use of money because the car company investors want their ever-increasing profits.
  - darkmarmot 1y ago
    i am still fine in my used 2012 12k prius.
- Gigachad 1y ago
  I've done the math a few times and it just makes no sense to own a car for me. Public transport is the fastest way to get to work, and for everything else I can uber every time PT isn't the best option and still come out cheaper than buying the most budget new car.
paxys 1y ago
We do want affordable Chinese EVs, the same way we want Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, Subaru (all among the best selling auto manufacturers in the USA every year). You can't buy them because the government and domestic car companies don't want you to.
tengbretson 1y ago
> comment about how a non-american country has a better approach > male ego/phalus comment > car-centric cities > "N-ton metal box" I'm 1 square away from a Strong Towns reader bingo. Do you happen to know who invented the concept of jaywalking?
- wetpaws 1y ago
  [dead]
willcipriano 1y ago
> We don't want affordable Chinese EVs. If that was true it wouldn't be illegal to sell them.
vovavili 1y ago
I do want cheap Chinese EVs. I can't buy them because of government regulation.
- JKCalhoun 1y ago
  I'd prefer to have cheap U.S. cars ... but I suspect we won't seem them until the threat of cheap Chinese cars becomes a reality.
  - beeflet 1y ago
    there are companies like slate auto trying this model in the USA, but who knows how that will play out.
msgodel 1y ago
I'm always a little surprised anyone buys American cars at all. For a while they used to make larger trucks than anyone else did but even that's not really the case anymore, it's all just overpriced garbage with a popular brand.
eitally 1y ago
You're not wrong, but I think there's another factor, too. (And I drive a 2017 F150) I would love to sell my truck and get something smaller. But I just got a repair estimate of almost $2500 to replace the from facing camera in my wife's Odyssey, and the Bluetooth stack in my truck has never really worked properly for phone calls. With cars becoming increasingly. "Software defined vehicles" I don't feel comfortable purchasing a $50k+ car that might have software bugs, or may not be supported for over 5-10yrs. I'm currently thinking very seriously that the best options are either to buy used or to lease. Moreover, I'm thinking the overall percentage of private vehicles that are leased is going to continue to increase as time moves on, until the big mfrs are essentially acting as huge rental fleet operators.
- GiorgioG 1y ago
  2016 F-150 here…just keep it. At this point I’m going to run mine into the ground. No way I would spend whatever Ford is asking for nowadays for a new one.
  - hedora 1y ago
    I’ve got a used lightning, with a 1500 ram and a 1500 gmc before that. The Ford is by far the best truck we’ve owned. In fact, the other two were so unreliable and underpowered that I’ll never buy a GM or Stellantis (chrysler/dodge/ram/fiat) product again. Anyway, definitely hold onto the 2016/17 Fords vs switching brands. I’ve driven lower trim line Fords slightly older than that, and they were also way ahead of the newer GM and Ram trucks that we had.
iancmceachern 1y ago
We drive an F250, and live in San Francisco. We hardly put any miles on it (maybe 15k a year). To get around locally we ride our bikes mostly here in the city. We do use it for our small business (essential) and also to to a large RV trailer which we use to live in 2-4 months a year visiting loved ones and just decompressing. The things people don't usually talk about is the total cost of ownership. One can buy a new F250 diesel for $80k, drive it for 6 years towing heavy loads and working hard. And sellnit for more than half what they paid for it. During that time the only costs are routine maintenance, no major repair bills. One can also buy a luxury car or SUV, say a BMW, for the same price and 6 years later it is most certainly not worth half what they paid for it, and they typically paid tens of thousands in repair costs. The next argument people make is that a big truck is inefficient. The simple fact is my F250 diesel gets the same as your BMW M3. But it can be used for work, and is. Financially, I would argue that it makes no sense to buy a new vehicle above $50k that isn't a diesel pickup.
- soganess 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - iancmceachern 1y ago
    >>"absolutely prat" Why the personal insult? Mods is this ok per HN policy? I use and need it for work, yes big heavy things also need to be done in cities too. I noted this in my original comment. It's very tacky to personally insult a working person for the tools of their trade. You don't like the fact that a plumber needs a plumbing truck? How would a window installer get the windows to the jobsite? How do you bring diesel engines to install in their final locations? And you are absolutely wrong on the repair of BMWs and especially Audis. Just look at used cars for those brands from a few years ago. You are right on maintenance, but I'm talking about repairs. Things breaking and needing replacement or repair. Anyone who has owned those brands will tell you. Also part prices are a big difference. If you want a small car buy a Carolla, Camry or a Lexus. I'm not saying buy a big truck. I'm saying it makes no sense to buy a vehicle over $50k that isn't a diesel pickup, except for "comfort" or "status". If you don't need one for work, then buy a Camry. They're really nice.
jfengel 1y ago
I have never seen the bed of a Cybertruck. Not a dig at the vehicle; that's a different thing. Rather, I notice that this truck doesn't seem to spend much time as a, ya know, truck. With other trucks it's less obvious because they don't have a built in bed cover. I suspect many of them also spent very little time trucking, at least here in this suburb. Perhaps it's different in more agricultural areas.
- defrost 1y ago
  I'm in an agricultural area, have been in and around agriculture and mining for many decades, I can't see anyone buying a cybertruck for any practical reason. I've seen the offroad performance videos, the cybertruck isn't anything to write home about wrt to either ground clearance or scrabble factor (broken road hill climbing, etc). Other cheaper vehicles perform as well or better. The tray area is a nightmare, three side access to tools is good, totally flat tray backs are good, side rails for tie downs are good, ability to custom fit racks for carrying stuff (long lumber, or glass and or panels, etc), etc. are all the kinds of practical choices that dictate a practical utility purchase .. none of these are things at which the cybertruck shines.
  - stevenwoo 1y ago
    I live in suburbs between San Jose and. San Francisco and see a few Cybertrucks in single family home driveways and apartment parking lots - it feels more like a status symbol of some kind, see a lot more of other pickup trucks, though more common in less affluent areas.
  - rpcope1 1y ago
    An intelligent flatbed setup (what I think the Australians call "trays") is usually way better than a regular bed (barring maybe aerodynamics). A good Bradford or Circle D flatbed (as examples) can take way, way more punishment than a regular bed, and it's real easy to bring a forklift up and load pallets on the side, add boxes or tie downs, etc. One major reason you don't see a lot of them in the states is that many insurers (if you tell them you've put an flatbed on -- even a pretty aluminum one on a mini truck) will automatically assume the truck is being used in some sort of revenue service, and charge you significantly more expensive commercial rates no matter what you tell them.
neom 1y ago
I've been watching WheelsBoy youtube channel a lot, he covers Chinese cars in China: https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy - I don't know if this is the best source, but it's been eye opening to watch.
everdrive 1y ago
Regulations prevent the sale of small, cheap trucks in the US. I'm so sick of "BIG MANN TRUCK" being blamed on ego. The kind small basic of truck you used to be able to buy just doesn't exist any more and it's been regulated out of existence. The Maverick doesn't even stand-in very well for this and Ford can barely keep up with the demand.
jillesvangurp 1y ago
> We don't want affordable Chinese EVs. The US wants them so much that it requires 100% tariffs to keep them off the market.

burnt-resistor 1y ago

F-450 King Ranch Super Deluxe.. all made from plastic and guaranteed not to last longer than 8 years. Most engines of new vehicles are sleeved and cannot be rebuilt in the spirit of designed for manufacturing and profits > designed for durability.

timewizard 1y ago
Yep. Then add in all the regulatory systems. DEF, EGR, Catalytic Converter, Turbo, 10 speed transmissions. They're all fragile and fall out of warranty coverage easily. RAM is apparently going to use plastic control arms in it's new vehicles.

paulryanrogers 1y ago

Cars are a reflection of ones personality here in the Midwest. Some grow out of it or never subscribe to the mentality. It's certainly cheaper to bicycle, weather and health permitting. Though car driving and ownership are a big cultural phenomenon, especially among men 18-50.

999900000999 1y ago
Depends on the man, I’ll admit in my early twenties I meet a few partners by being car free. I legit took a girl home after I asked her if she knew why the train was late. In Amsterdam at least one of the train stations has a piano. It becomes a 3rd place were people can make friends and socialize. We don’t have many 3rd places in the US where you can exist without spending money.
- paulryanrogers 1y ago
  Public transportation is seen as only a thing for children and/or the poor, at least in too many of my circles. Politicians and the public don't seem willing to invest to overcome the chicken and egg problem. Doesn't help that the legacy transport we do have is neglected, further harming it's reputation.
- dzhiurgis 1y ago
  Do you have example of places with density similar to US where public transport works well? Australia has some in urban centres, but otherwise car centric. Same in NZ. Elecric bus to my place costs 8x more than driving EV (before it was taxed)
  - shakna 1y ago
    Whilst I can spiel off complaints, public transport in Australia gets my kid to and from school everyday, and myself to and from work in two different cities, everyday, without being late. (When the union isn't striking). It does seem to work.
    - dzhiurgis 1y ago
      How do you get to train station?
      - BLKNSLVR 1y ago
        Not to whom you're directing your question, but I drive the short distance to the car park at the interchange/station, then catch the bus the long distance to the city. It's a great setup, and/but the very specific infrastructure[0] that I use only services maybe a quarter of the city's mid-suburbia. There's other public transport that services plenty of the rest though. Doxxing myself here, but anyway: [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-Bahn_Busway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-Bahn_Busway
        dzhiurgis 1y ago
blharr 1y ago
>Weather and health permitting Environment as well. In terms of "safety" it is unfortunately very risky to bike (or even walk) in my area due to the sprawling roads everywhere. Drivers don't look out for anything other than large boxes, and I've quickly had way too many close calls to consider it useful.
supertrope 1y ago
I can hear street racing noises from a highway three miles away! I used to think it was just a few blocks away because I could hear it but I looked at a map. A few people install aftermarket exhausts/noise makers critics call "fart cans." After a recent police crackdown the amount of racing noise at night decreased greatly.

clickety_clack 1y ago

I make pretty good tech money and I can’t imagine spending that much on a car. It would be cheaper to uber everywhere I went.

marssaxman 1y ago
Likewise - it's funny to me that $25,000 is cited as an "affordable" price for a car, when that's almost double what I spent on the most expensive car I've ever owned (a Land Rover Discovery II, which was a lovely machine). I cannot imagine what it would feel like to look at a $60,000 price tag and think, "yes, this would be a sensible use of money".
- interloxia 1y ago
  Weren't they almost 60k in 2025 dollars when they were new?
  - marssaxman 1y ago
    I suppose they were, but mine was a 2001 model and I bought it in 2007.
- msgodel 1y ago
  Man I felt bad spending $5k to swap out my used corolla for a used highlander.
- dumbledoren 1y ago
  $60,000 is a sensible use of money because the car company investors want their ever-increasing profits.
- darkmarmot 1y ago
  i am still fine in my used 2012 12k prius.
Gigachad 1y ago
I've done the math a few times and it just makes no sense to own a car for me. Public transport is the fastest way to get to work, and for everything else I can uber every time PT isn't the best option and still come out cheaper than buying the most budget new car.

paxys 1y ago

We do want affordable Chinese EVs, the same way we want Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, Subaru (all among the best selling auto manufacturers in the USA every year). You can't buy them because the government and domestic car companies don't want you to.

tengbretson 1y ago

> comment about how a non-american country has a better approach > male ego/phalus comment > car-centric cities > "N-ton metal box" I'm 1 square away from a Strong Towns reader bingo. Do you happen to know who invented the concept of jaywalking?

wetpaws 1y ago
[dead]

willcipriano 1y ago

> We don't want affordable Chinese EVs. If that was true it wouldn't be illegal to sell them.

vovavili 1y ago

I do want cheap Chinese EVs. I can't buy them because of government regulation.

JKCalhoun 1y ago
I'd prefer to have cheap U.S. cars ... but I suspect we won't seem them until the threat of cheap Chinese cars becomes a reality.
- beeflet 1y ago
  there are companies like slate auto trying this model in the USA, but who knows how that will play out.

msgodel 1y ago

I'm always a little surprised anyone buys American cars at all. For a while they used to make larger trucks than anyone else did but even that's not really the case anymore, it's all just overpriced garbage with a popular brand.

eitally 1y ago

You're not wrong, but I think there's another factor, too. (And I drive a 2017 F150) I would love to sell my truck and get something smaller. But I just got a repair estimate of almost $2500 to replace the from facing camera in my wife's Odyssey, and the Bluetooth stack in my truck has never really worked properly for phone calls. With cars becoming increasingly. "Software defined vehicles" I don't feel comfortable purchasing a $50k+ car that might have software bugs, or may not be supported for over 5-10yrs. I'm currently thinking very seriously that the best options are either to buy used or to lease. Moreover, I'm thinking the overall percentage of private vehicles that are leased is going to continue to increase as time moves on, until the big mfrs are essentially acting as huge rental fleet operators.

GiorgioG 1y ago
2016 F-150 here…just keep it. At this point I’m going to run mine into the ground. No way I would spend whatever Ford is asking for nowadays for a new one.
- hedora 1y ago
  I’ve got a used lightning, with a 1500 ram and a 1500 gmc before that. The Ford is by far the best truck we’ve owned. In fact, the other two were so unreliable and underpowered that I’ll never buy a GM or Stellantis (chrysler/dodge/ram/fiat) product again. Anyway, definitely hold onto the 2016/17 Fords vs switching brands. I’ve driven lower trim line Fords slightly older than that, and they were also way ahead of the newer GM and Ram trucks that we had.

iancmceachern 1y ago

We drive an F250, and live in San Francisco. We hardly put any miles on it (maybe 15k a year). To get around locally we ride our bikes mostly here in the city. We do use it for our small business (essential) and also to to a large RV trailer which we use to live in 2-4 months a year visiting loved ones and just decompressing. The things people don't usually talk about is the total cost of ownership. One can buy a new F250 diesel for $80k, drive it for 6 years towing heavy loads and working hard. And sellnit for more than half what they paid for it. During that time the only costs are routine maintenance, no major repair bills. One can also buy a luxury car or SUV, say a BMW, for the same price and 6 years later it is most certainly not worth half what they paid for it, and they typically paid tens of thousands in repair costs. The next argument people make is that a big truck is inefficient. The simple fact is my F250 diesel gets the same as your BMW M3. But it can be used for work, and is. Financially, I would argue that it makes no sense to buy a new vehicle above $50k that isn't a diesel pickup.

soganess 1y ago
[flagged]
- iancmceachern 1y ago
  >>"absolutely prat" Why the personal insult? Mods is this ok per HN policy? I use and need it for work, yes big heavy things also need to be done in cities too. I noted this in my original comment. It's very tacky to personally insult a working person for the tools of their trade. You don't like the fact that a plumber needs a plumbing truck? How would a window installer get the windows to the jobsite? How do you bring diesel engines to install in their final locations? And you are absolutely wrong on the repair of BMWs and especially Audis. Just look at used cars for those brands from a few years ago. You are right on maintenance, but I'm talking about repairs. Things breaking and needing replacement or repair. Anyone who has owned those brands will tell you. Also part prices are a big difference. If you want a small car buy a Carolla, Camry or a Lexus. I'm not saying buy a big truck. I'm saying it makes no sense to buy a vehicle over $50k that isn't a diesel pickup, except for "comfort" or "status". If you don't need one for work, then buy a Camry. They're really nice.

jfengel 1y ago

I have never seen the bed of a Cybertruck. Not a dig at the vehicle; that's a different thing. Rather, I notice that this truck doesn't seem to spend much time as a, ya know, truck. With other trucks it's less obvious because they don't have a built in bed cover. I suspect many of them also spent very little time trucking, at least here in this suburb. Perhaps it's different in more agricultural areas.

defrost 1y ago
I'm in an agricultural area, have been in and around agriculture and mining for many decades, I can't see anyone buying a cybertruck for any practical reason. I've seen the offroad performance videos, the cybertruck isn't anything to write home about wrt to either ground clearance or scrabble factor (broken road hill climbing, etc). Other cheaper vehicles perform as well or better. The tray area is a nightmare, three side access to tools is good, totally flat tray backs are good, side rails for tie downs are good, ability to custom fit racks for carrying stuff (long lumber, or glass and or panels, etc), etc. are all the kinds of practical choices that dictate a practical utility purchase .. none of these are things at which the cybertruck shines.
- stevenwoo 1y ago
  I live in suburbs between San Jose and. San Francisco and see a few Cybertrucks in single family home driveways and apartment parking lots - it feels more like a status symbol of some kind, see a lot more of other pickup trucks, though more common in less affluent areas.
- rpcope1 1y ago
  An intelligent flatbed setup (what I think the Australians call "trays") is usually way better than a regular bed (barring maybe aerodynamics). A good Bradford or Circle D flatbed (as examples) can take way, way more punishment than a regular bed, and it's real easy to bring a forklift up and load pallets on the side, add boxes or tie downs, etc. One major reason you don't see a lot of them in the states is that many insurers (if you tell them you've put an flatbed on -- even a pretty aluminum one on a mini truck) will automatically assume the truck is being used in some sort of revenue service, and charge you significantly more expensive commercial rates no matter what you tell them.

neom 1y ago

I've been watching WheelsBoy youtube channel a lot, he covers Chinese cars in China: https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy - I don't know if this is the best source, but it's been eye opening to watch.

everdrive 1y ago

Regulations prevent the sale of small, cheap trucks in the US. I'm so sick of "BIG MANN TRUCK" being blamed on ego. The kind small basic of truck you used to be able to buy just doesn't exist any more and it's been regulated out of existence. The Maverick doesn't even stand-in very well for this and Ford can barely keep up with the demand.

jillesvangurp 1y ago

> We don't want affordable Chinese EVs. The US wants them so much that it requires 100% tariffs to keep them off the market.