5 ms·

The Medley Interlisp Project: Reviving a Historical Software System [pdf]

118 points by pamoroso 1y ago

phaer 1y ago
They have an informative website and an online emulator at https://interlisp.org/software/access-online/ https://interlisp.org/software/access-online/
pfdietz 1y ago
I love this quote (from Interlisp-D: Overview and Status): "Interlisp is a very large software system and large software systems are not easy to construct. Interlisp-D has on the order of 17,000 lines of Lisp code, 6,000 lines of Bcpl, and 4,000 lines of microcode." So large. :) http://www.softwarepreservation.net/projects/LISP/interlisp-d/Papers_On_Interlisp-D.pdf http://www.softwarepreservation.net/projects/LISP/interlisp-...
- pmcjones 1y ago
  A better URL: https://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp-d/Papers_On_Interlisp-D.pdf https://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp...
- zelphirkalt 1y ago
  Same thing could probably be some 200k or more LoC in enterprise Java.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Or Objective-C, https://github.com/Quotation/LongestCocoa https://github.com/Quotation/LongestCocoa Or Smalltalk or C++, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns Or even C, https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Structured-Analysis-Edward-Yourdon/dp/0135986249 https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Structured-Analysis-Edward-You... Point being, people like to blame Java, while forgetting history of enterprise architecture.
    - zelphirkalt 1y ago
      Smalltalk though is famous for having blocks (closures!), a very minimal syntax, and late binding. It has had those for decades before Java got something like it. But I think it is also at least partially a culture thing. Wanting to make every noun into a class and then going for 3 levels of design patterns, when actually a single function with appropriate types of input arguments and output would be sufficient, if it can be decided on at runtime. Then we run into issues of Java the language, which doesn't let you use the most elementary building block, a function. No, it forces you to put things into classes and that makes people think, that now they want to make objects, instead of merely have a static method. Then they complicate design more and more building on that. A culture of not being familiar with other languages, which emphasize more basic building blocks than classes. A culture of "I can do everything with Java, why learn something else?". A similar culture exists in the C++ world or among C aficionados.
      - pjmlp 1y ago
        Smalltalk is a pure OOP language, even the blocks you praise are objects. Java isn't the only language missing closures, plenty of them took their nice time getting them into the language. Everything else about Java on your comment, applies equally well to Smalltalk, that is why famous books like Design Patters exist, were written about 5 years predating the idea of a programming language like Java, and mostly uses Smalltalk examples, with some C++ as well. In Smalltalk image world, everything is Smalltalk, the IDE, the platform, the OS, there isn't something else. Many Java frameworks like JUnit, or industry trends like XP and Agile, have their roots in Smalltalk consulting projects, using IDEs like Visual Age for Smalltalk. J2EE started its life as an Objective-C framework at Sun, during their collaboration with NeXT, called Distributed Objects Everywhere. In similar vein, NeXT ported their Web Objects framework in Objective-C to Java, even before Apple's acquisition, with pretty much the same kind of abstraction ideas.
- topspin 1y ago
  > So large. :) Consider this: at any moment in history, the prevailing state the art in computing and information systems are characterized has huge, very large, massive, etc. Some years later, it's a portable device with a battery, and we forgive and snicker at those naïve souls that had no idea at the time. It's still true today. Whatever thing you have in mind: vast software systems running clouds, megawatt powered NVidia GPU clusters, mighty LLMs... given 10-20 years, the equivalent will be an ad subsidized toy you'll impulse purchase on Black Friday. You're instinct will be to reject this as absurd. Keep in mind, that is the same impulse experienced by those that came before us.
jshaqaw 1y ago
Retro lisp machines are cool. Kudos to the team. Love it. That said… we need the “lisp machine” of the future more than we need a recreation.
- rjsw 1y ago
  What does a Lisp Machine of the future look like? There is Mezzano [1] as well as the Interlisp project described in the linked paper and another project resurrecting the LMI software. [1] https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
  - imglorp 1y ago
    LMI here https://github.com/dseagrav/ld https://github.com/dseagrav/ld
    - amszmidt 1y ago
      Mostly dead. Current Lisp Machine shenanigans related to MIT/LMI are at https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 ... Currently working on an accurate model of the MIT CADR in VHDL, and merging the various System source trees into one that should work for Lambda, and CADR.
      - diggan 1y ago
        > Currently working on an accurate model of the MIT CADR in VHDL Sounds extremely interesting, any links/feeds one could follow the progress at? The dream of running lisp on hardware made for lisp lives on, against all odds :)
        amszmidt 1y ago
        Current work is at http://github.com/ams/cadr4 http://github.com/ams/cadr4 And of course .. https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 .
kps 1y ago
~wavy lines~~ I've never used this in anger, but I owned a second-hand Xerox Daybreak for a while to play around with. Later, there was a some freely available project (I've now forgotten) that used Interlisp running on an emulator running on a DEC Alpha, and so I added some minor bits to NetBSD's Ultrix compatibility.
- rjsw 1y ago
  The Lisp Machine emulator that was tied to DEC Alpha was Symbolics OpenGenera.
  - kps 1y ago
    Made me look: Xerox LFG Grammar Writer's Workbench: https://web.archive.org/web/20170907021542/https://www2.parc.com/isl/groups/nltt/medley/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170907021542/https://www2.parc... Interlisp screenshot: https://web.archive.org/web/20160616231118/http://www2.parc.com/isl/groups/nltt/medley/screenshot.gif https://web.archive.org/web/20160616231118/http://www2.parc.... Evidently the emulator was later ported to Linux as well.
    - pamoroso 1y ago
      Did you use LFG Grammar Writer's Workbench for linguistics work or research back then? Ron Kaplan is looking to revive the system and make it run on Medley Interlisp again.
      - kps 1y ago
        Personally, neither — I just used it as a way to get a copy of Interlisp to play with.

118 points by pamoroso 1y ago

They have an informative website and an online emulator at https://interlisp.org/software/access-online/ https://interlisp.org/software/access-online/

pfdietz 1y ago

I love this quote (from Interlisp-D: Overview and Status): "Interlisp is a very large software system and large software systems are not easy to construct. Interlisp-D has on the order of 17,000 lines of Lisp code, 6,000 lines of Bcpl, and 4,000 lines of microcode." So large. :) http://www.softwarepreservation.net/projects/LISP/interlisp-d/Papers_On_Interlisp-D.pdf http://www.softwarepreservation.net/projects/LISP/interlisp-...

pmcjones 1y ago
A better URL: https://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp-d/Papers_On_Interlisp-D.pdf https://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp...
zelphirkalt 1y ago
Same thing could probably be some 200k or more LoC in enterprise Java.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Or Objective-C, https://github.com/Quotation/LongestCocoa https://github.com/Quotation/LongestCocoa Or Smalltalk or C++, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns Or even C, https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Structured-Analysis-Edward-Yourdon/dp/0135986249 https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Structured-Analysis-Edward-You... Point being, people like to blame Java, while forgetting history of enterprise architecture.
  - zelphirkalt 1y ago
    Smalltalk though is famous for having blocks (closures!), a very minimal syntax, and late binding. It has had those for decades before Java got something like it. But I think it is also at least partially a culture thing. Wanting to make every noun into a class and then going for 3 levels of design patterns, when actually a single function with appropriate types of input arguments and output would be sufficient, if it can be decided on at runtime. Then we run into issues of Java the language, which doesn't let you use the most elementary building block, a function. No, it forces you to put things into classes and that makes people think, that now they want to make objects, instead of merely have a static method. Then they complicate design more and more building on that. A culture of not being familiar with other languages, which emphasize more basic building blocks than classes. A culture of "I can do everything with Java, why learn something else?". A similar culture exists in the C++ world or among C aficionados.
    - pjmlp 1y ago
      Smalltalk is a pure OOP language, even the blocks you praise are objects. Java isn't the only language missing closures, plenty of them took their nice time getting them into the language. Everything else about Java on your comment, applies equally well to Smalltalk, that is why famous books like Design Patters exist, were written about 5 years predating the idea of a programming language like Java, and mostly uses Smalltalk examples, with some C++ as well. In Smalltalk image world, everything is Smalltalk, the IDE, the platform, the OS, there isn't something else. Many Java frameworks like JUnit, or industry trends like XP and Agile, have their roots in Smalltalk consulting projects, using IDEs like Visual Age for Smalltalk. J2EE started its life as an Objective-C framework at Sun, during their collaboration with NeXT, called Distributed Objects Everywhere. In similar vein, NeXT ported their Web Objects framework in Objective-C to Java, even before Apple's acquisition, with pretty much the same kind of abstraction ideas.
topspin 1y ago
> So large. :) Consider this: at any moment in history, the prevailing state the art in computing and information systems are characterized has huge, very large, massive, etc. Some years later, it's a portable device with a battery, and we forgive and snicker at those naïve souls that had no idea at the time. It's still true today. Whatever thing you have in mind: vast software systems running clouds, megawatt powered NVidia GPU clusters, mighty LLMs... given 10-20 years, the equivalent will be an ad subsidized toy you'll impulse purchase on Black Friday. You're instinct will be to reject this as absurd. Keep in mind, that is the same impulse experienced by those that came before us.

jshaqaw 1y ago

Retro lisp machines are cool. Kudos to the team. Love it. That said… we need the “lisp machine” of the future more than we need a recreation.

rjsw 1y ago
What does a Lisp Machine of the future look like? There is Mezzano [1] as well as the Interlisp project described in the linked paper and another project resurrecting the LMI software. [1] https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
- imglorp 1y ago
  LMI here https://github.com/dseagrav/ld https://github.com/dseagrav/ld
  - amszmidt 1y ago
    Mostly dead. Current Lisp Machine shenanigans related to MIT/LMI are at https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 ... Currently working on an accurate model of the MIT CADR in VHDL, and merging the various System source trees into one that should work for Lambda, and CADR.
    - diggan 1y ago
      > Currently working on an accurate model of the MIT CADR in VHDL Sounds extremely interesting, any links/feeds one could follow the progress at? The dream of running lisp on hardware made for lisp lives on, against all odds :)
      - amszmidt 1y ago
        Current work is at http://github.com/ams/cadr4 http://github.com/ams/cadr4 And of course .. https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 .

kps 1y ago

~wavy lines~~ I've never used this in anger, but I owned a second-hand Xerox Daybreak for a while to play around with. Later, there was a some freely available project (I've now forgotten) that used Interlisp running on an emulator running on a DEC Alpha, and so I added some minor bits to NetBSD's Ultrix compatibility.

rjsw 1y ago
The Lisp Machine emulator that was tied to DEC Alpha was Symbolics OpenGenera.
- kps 1y ago
  Made me look: Xerox LFG Grammar Writer's Workbench: https://web.archive.org/web/20170907021542/https://www2.parc.com/isl/groups/nltt/medley/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170907021542/https://www2.parc... Interlisp screenshot: https://web.archive.org/web/20160616231118/http://www2.parc.com/isl/groups/nltt/medley/screenshot.gif https://web.archive.org/web/20160616231118/http://www2.parc.... Evidently the emulator was later ported to Linux as well.
  - pamoroso 1y ago
    Did you use LFG Grammar Writer's Workbench for linguistics work or research back then? Ron Kaplan is looking to revive the system and make it run on Medley Interlisp again.
    - kps 1y ago
      Personally, neither — I just used it as a way to get a copy of Interlisp to play with.