8 ms·

We need to talk about Saudi Arabia

42 points by tweetle_beetle 1y ago

SanjayMehta 1y ago
No you don’t. Just mind your own business. Leave them alone and hope they do the same.
- ath3nd 1y ago
  Yes he does. Helping an authoritarian regime known for oppression and killing its dissidents is not ethical. And sure as hell we would not mind our business, standing aside when evil is being done makes you participate in evil. Saudi Arabia needs to be named and shamed and boycotted, the same way Russia and Israel currently are.
  - v5v3 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - graemep 1y ago
      There are certainly evil things in the west but nothing to compare with things like cutting people's heads off for having gay sex or following the wrong religion or punishing rape victims. You do not realise how privileged people in the west are - as someone who has lived inn a country that was bad at the time (nothing like Saudi Arabia but things such as journalists being disappeared and a nasty civil war) westerners who say "oh, its just the same" make me really just look delusional and completely unaware of their privilege.
      - msgodel 1y ago
        Foreign states are often the way they are because their population prefers that. People shouldn't get so spun up about it. If those people came here they'd probably just recreate most of the things they do there.
        graemep 1y ago
        > Foreign states are often the way they are because their population prefers that. 1. That does not make it ethical. There was a time when the majority of people in the US thought it right to treat black people as inferior. Did that make it right? 2. This stuff is at its worst in counties where the population has no chance to express their preference. 3. How do you know what people's preferences are in "foreign states"? Did you go there and ask a representative sample of people after convincing them they could trust you enough to tell you their real views? Its amazing how people's expressed preferences match their governments if they will be chucked in jail or murdered if they disagree, and their access to information is limited to what the government things they should know.
        msgodel 1y ago
        I'm really not convinced representation changes as much as people think it does.
        ramon156 1y ago
        That's a weird way of looking at it. You do know populations get manipulated no? Yes, even the west
        mpalmer 1y ago
        Where exactly do you think "here" is?
      - jbm 1y ago
        We literally have a western country opening fire on unarmed people queuing for food in the same region. It's literally on the front page right now. Prosecutors for those crimes have had their accounts frozen by Microsoft. So yeah, no. Statements about human rights have no credibility.
      - sthkr 1y ago
        The last thing anyone needs advice about human rights is from the west. The invasions and mass murders in wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Iran, Libya. Still remember that pr*ck Colin Powell showing that vial to justify that invasion of Iraq. The world's worst murderers have been the British, Dutch, Belgian, French, Spanish and American empires throughout history. The worst genocide in history was committed by Belgium in Congo where they killed millions. Lol no one gets their head cut off for gay sex or wrong religion. Capital punishment is only for murder, terrorism, rape and drug smugglers. The Saudi Government is quite liberal there. It's your own Saudi families that will ostracize you based on their own decisions. You keep talking about dissidents. I still remember Obama and his Arab spring and how thousands died because of him. The west like to implant people to create internal conflicts inside countries. It's not going to work in the Gulf countries as all the citizens know how the Americans thrive on instigating conflict. That journalist just wanted to create anarchy. I still remember the terrorist attacks at my American school and other cities in Saudi Arabia during 2004 - 2005. I trust the police and government to eradicate all the extremist and outside threats to the country and keep everyone safe. They've basically cleaned out all the extremism in these past 20 years from the country. The Americans also enjoyed keeping the Saudis and Iranians fighting until the Chinese stepped in and created peace between these two countries. Americans need to worry about their own backyard with their crap healthcare, poverty, homelessness, illegals, gun violence etc. Saudi Arabia isn't perfect, but Saudi citizens have to pay no income taxes, get free universal healthcare, free education, free university education, all government paid scholarships for universities abroad (tuition, travel & living), first priority in all jobs, social security support for low income citizens, interest free mortgages, etc. Plus Saudi Arabia long with the other Gulf countries like UAE & Qatar are some of the safest countries. All illegals arrested and deported every month, low crime rates, no African/Asian Refugee illegal drunk junkies roaming the streets (like Europe/America), no homeless tents, no gun violence etc. The Gulf countries along with Japan, South Korea, Singapore and China know how to keep their countries safe, clean and well. Look at Europe & Scandinavia now with all the illegals running around.
        leosanchez 1y ago
        > Plus Saudi Arabia long with the other Gulf countries like UAE & Qatar are some of the safest countries. Do legal immigrants get to keep their passports?
    - DanielVZ 1y ago
      I don’t see political dissidents being killed left and right in my western country. I don’t see minorities being arrested and killed just for being different in my country. I don’t see blatant forced labor being the norm in my country. We do have dark moments in our history, and we do have our own issues at home (not the US btw), but it’s nowhere near what’s happening in Saudi Arabia so don’t try to play to tie (“jugar al empate” as we say here).
      - dangus 1y ago
        If you’re speaking Spanish and using that football-inspired phrase you’re almost certainly in a country with a highly problematic past if not present.
        DanielVZ 1y ago
        As all countries. I acknowledge that above.
      - v5v3 1y ago
        Why would you see any political dissidents been killed or imprisoned unlawfully? If the media won't tell you, how will you find out?
        DanielVZ 1y ago
        There are plenty of ways of finding out this day and age. The difference is that no one is getting arrested for posting something on X, or for whistleblowing.
      - SanjayMehta 1y ago
        You don’t see it because your media is corrupt.
        ath3nd 1y ago
        True, and we don't see it in Saudi because their media is either owned by the dictatorship or chopped to pieces.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - pelagicAustral 1y ago
      I don't think they hide it at all... I think we just don't see governments in the West with the same eyes, sort of like the same effect that happens when watching Vic Mackey or Tony Soprano, and rooting for them fully knowing how morally depleted they are as humans.
      - spwa4 1y ago
        This is moral absolutist thinking. Either you're 100% good or 100% evil and there is nothing in between. Under that thinking, of course, everyone (except, of course, the speaker and friends) is evil and can be accused and held responsible, for their "moral failings". Oh and you ESPECIALLY don't get to defend anyone with practical arguments, for example, that it is a lot harder for a government that does not have tons and tons of (to them) free natural resources money, like Saudi Arabia (they don't even extract it themselves) to avoid moral problems, and problems in general than it is for, say America. That a country that has to do things itself, just to make a random example, defend it's shores against drugs (and shoot at people who try to ...) has to make a lot of moral compromises (like, perhaps, shooting at criminals trying to flee in a boat) that Saudi Arabia doesn't have to make. Many countries, like Saudi Arabia, always get a free pass, because "you can't expect them to adhere to ..." when in fact it would be SO much easier for them to have a perfect human rights record, no poverty, extremely liberal societies, ... than it is for the US (because incomes in Saudi Arabia largely does not derive from having Saudi Arabians work, so there's no need to force them to. America shoots at people so Saudi Arabia can export it's oil, ...) The fact is most non-Western governments (like Saudi Arabia, but they're middle of the boat at best in evilness) don't have the interests of people in mind at all. Regardless if "people" means Saudi Arabian people, people who live in Saudi Arabia including foreignors, or women, or children for that matter. AT BEST, they are like Western companies, at worst ... you can imagine. That a government with the financial means of Saudi Arabia fails here should be 10x worse than similar failings on, for example the US's part (but same for, say, Denmark). But the root cause is simple: the Saudi government is not there to benefit the people there, it benefits itself only. In other words: these dictatorships are MUCH worse and have MUCH more serious moral failings than the US.
        1y ago
    - ath3nd 1y ago
      Western countries support Israel in the genocide they do on Palestine, and violently quash protests against climate change or said genocide in Palestine. But at the same time we need to call out all evil, including the one happening in Saudi Arabia.
      - matthewdgreen 1y ago
        Western governments still allow you to post comments criticizing these things. But we’re on the knife edge of authoritarianism. A few more “everyone is equally bad” elections and that will be gone too.
    - victorbjorklund 1y ago
      tell us more about the journalists chopped up to pieces in the finish embassay by the finish government.
      - SanjayMehta 1y ago
        There was this chap called Julian Assange who was framed by the Swedish government and then involuntarily incarcerated in an embassy in London. Close enough?
        victorbjorklund 1y ago
        Oh really? He was chopped up to pieces by the Swedish govt? Or did he hide in an embassy to avoid a rape investigation (of course you believe women just lie about rape)?
        ath3nd 1y ago
        The fact that the West persecuted Assange for exposing their crimes against humanity doesn't give right to Saudi Arabia to kill its journalists with impunity either. Surely crimes against humanity and violating human rights can be done by multiple governments, as Netanyahu's genocide against the Palestinians can coexist at the same time as MBS's chopping of journalists and illegal incarcerations.
        SanjayMehta 1y ago
        Again with the relativistic moral blah blah. Who are you to impose your moral system on any one else? Why is it so hard for westerners to mind their own business?
      - v5v3 1y ago
        In the UK a MI5 worker was found in a holdall,which was in the bath and padlocked. https://metro.co.uk/2024/02/08/ex-mi5-officer-this-verdict-spy-bag-mystery-20247130/ https://metro.co.uk/2024/02/08/ex-mi5-officer-this-verdict-s...
  - thomassmith65 1y ago
    What would a boycott against Saudi Arabia actually accomplish? The quickest path to a Saudi Arabia that doesn't abuse human rights is probably the path they're already on.
    - TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
      What will ignoring climate change actually accomplish? There is "Not my problem" here, because one or way another it will be your problem within ten years, maybe five. And for some people here and reading this, within a few months. Your choices about what to work now on affect your future, in a very direct, literal, potentially fatal way. That's the point.
      - thomassmith65 1y ago
        MBS already wants to modernize and liberalize Saudi Arabia. This is for economic reasons, and, I would guess, also because his macabre reputation is a drag when he's partying with his Western friends. Any boycott that would get Saudi Arabia more humane government would be a good boycott. It just seems more likely that sanctions would wreck their economy and lead to a religious fanatic taking over.
        sam_lowry_ 1y ago
        Mohammed bin Salman? He is probably a complex man, but by accident of history the only thing we know about him is the killing of Khashoggi and the gnarly details of the body disposal process.
        thomassmith65 1y ago
        That's the one, unfortunately. In Saudi Arabia, if you're not someone he wants to torture or kill, you can enjoy increased religious freedoms, gender equality, and international ties. It's a bit like Iran before the revolution: the Shah was liberalizing and modernizing his nation, while at the same using SAVAK to torture his opposition.
  - SanjayMehta 1y ago
    Why? Is this the new version of the WMB?
    - ath3nd 1y ago
      Cause chopping journalists into pieces is evil, same as attacking your political enemies like what all the douche dictators like MBS, Trump, Putin, Stalin, Netanyahu and many other evil people do. We are calling this out. What is wrong with that?
      - SanjayMehta 1y ago
        [flagged]
- 0rzech 1y ago
  > Leave them alone Well, this is what the article proposes to architects indeed.
perlgeek 1y ago
Hugged to death, use https://archive.is/1JT24 https://archive.is/1JT24 instead
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
dangus 1y ago
How many democratic countries have never had some kind of involvement in imperialism, slavery, monarchy, starting wars, etc? How many are still doing it? I don’t really think that individuals need to feel especially bad for getting work where there’s work. Some jobs just inherently involve asshole clients. If your job is to stitch the leather interiors for Rolls Royce, 100% of your customers are assholes. I don’t think that means you should stop doing that job and flip burgers instead.
engineer_22 1y ago
It's my belief that architects such as our author have far too much free time on their hands.
1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
Works where archive.is is blocked, no CAPTCHA, no Javascript required, no https://top-fwz1.mail.ru/js/code.js https://top-fwz1.mail.ru/js/code.js, no Google Analytics cookie: https://web.archive.org/web/20241216122438if_/https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-saudi-arabia https://web.archive.org/web/20241216122438if_/https://www.ar...

SanjayMehta 1y ago

No you don’t. Just mind your own business. Leave them alone and hope they do the same.

ath3nd 1y ago
Yes he does. Helping an authoritarian regime known for oppression and killing its dissidents is not ethical. And sure as hell we would not mind our business, standing aside when evil is being done makes you participate in evil. Saudi Arabia needs to be named and shamed and boycotted, the same way Russia and Israel currently are.
- v5v3 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - graemep 1y ago
    There are certainly evil things in the west but nothing to compare with things like cutting people's heads off for having gay sex or following the wrong religion or punishing rape victims. You do not realise how privileged people in the west are - as someone who has lived inn a country that was bad at the time (nothing like Saudi Arabia but things such as journalists being disappeared and a nasty civil war) westerners who say "oh, its just the same" make me really just look delusional and completely unaware of their privilege.
    - msgodel 1y ago
      Foreign states are often the way they are because their population prefers that. People shouldn't get so spun up about it. If those people came here they'd probably just recreate most of the things they do there.
      - graemep 1y ago
        > Foreign states are often the way they are because their population prefers that. 1. That does not make it ethical. There was a time when the majority of people in the US thought it right to treat black people as inferior. Did that make it right? 2. This stuff is at its worst in counties where the population has no chance to express their preference. 3. How do you know what people's preferences are in "foreign states"? Did you go there and ask a representative sample of people after convincing them they could trust you enough to tell you their real views? Its amazing how people's expressed preferences match their governments if they will be chucked in jail or murdered if they disagree, and their access to information is limited to what the government things they should know.
        msgodel 1y ago
        I'm really not convinced representation changes as much as people think it does.
      - ramon156 1y ago
        That's a weird way of looking at it. You do know populations get manipulated no? Yes, even the west
      - mpalmer 1y ago
        Where exactly do you think "here" is?
    - jbm 1y ago
      We literally have a western country opening fire on unarmed people queuing for food in the same region. It's literally on the front page right now. Prosecutors for those crimes have had their accounts frozen by Microsoft. So yeah, no. Statements about human rights have no credibility.
    - sthkr 1y ago
      The last thing anyone needs advice about human rights is from the west. The invasions and mass murders in wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Iran, Libya. Still remember that pr*ck Colin Powell showing that vial to justify that invasion of Iraq. The world's worst murderers have been the British, Dutch, Belgian, French, Spanish and American empires throughout history. The worst genocide in history was committed by Belgium in Congo where they killed millions. Lol no one gets their head cut off for gay sex or wrong religion. Capital punishment is only for murder, terrorism, rape and drug smugglers. The Saudi Government is quite liberal there. It's your own Saudi families that will ostracize you based on their own decisions. You keep talking about dissidents. I still remember Obama and his Arab spring and how thousands died because of him. The west like to implant people to create internal conflicts inside countries. It's not going to work in the Gulf countries as all the citizens know how the Americans thrive on instigating conflict. That journalist just wanted to create anarchy. I still remember the terrorist attacks at my American school and other cities in Saudi Arabia during 2004 - 2005. I trust the police and government to eradicate all the extremist and outside threats to the country and keep everyone safe. They've basically cleaned out all the extremism in these past 20 years from the country. The Americans also enjoyed keeping the Saudis and Iranians fighting until the Chinese stepped in and created peace between these two countries. Americans need to worry about their own backyard with their crap healthcare, poverty, homelessness, illegals, gun violence etc. Saudi Arabia isn't perfect, but Saudi citizens have to pay no income taxes, get free universal healthcare, free education, free university education, all government paid scholarships for universities abroad (tuition, travel & living), first priority in all jobs, social security support for low income citizens, interest free mortgages, etc. Plus Saudi Arabia long with the other Gulf countries like UAE & Qatar are some of the safest countries. All illegals arrested and deported every month, low crime rates, no African/Asian Refugee illegal drunk junkies roaming the streets (like Europe/America), no homeless tents, no gun violence etc. The Gulf countries along with Japan, South Korea, Singapore and China know how to keep their countries safe, clean and well. Look at Europe & Scandinavia now with all the illegals running around.
      - leosanchez 1y ago
        > Plus Saudi Arabia long with the other Gulf countries like UAE & Qatar are some of the safest countries. Do legal immigrants get to keep their passports?
  - DanielVZ 1y ago
    I don’t see political dissidents being killed left and right in my western country. I don’t see minorities being arrested and killed just for being different in my country. I don’t see blatant forced labor being the norm in my country. We do have dark moments in our history, and we do have our own issues at home (not the US btw), but it’s nowhere near what’s happening in Saudi Arabia so don’t try to play to tie (“jugar al empate” as we say here).
    - dangus 1y ago
      If you’re speaking Spanish and using that football-inspired phrase you’re almost certainly in a country with a highly problematic past if not present.
      - DanielVZ 1y ago
        As all countries. I acknowledge that above.
    - v5v3 1y ago
      Why would you see any political dissidents been killed or imprisoned unlawfully? If the media won't tell you, how will you find out?
      - DanielVZ 1y ago
        There are plenty of ways of finding out this day and age. The difference is that no one is getting arrested for posting something on X, or for whistleblowing.
    - SanjayMehta 1y ago
      You don’t see it because your media is corrupt.
      - ath3nd 1y ago
        True, and we don't see it in Saudi because their media is either owned by the dictatorship or chopped to pieces.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - pelagicAustral 1y ago
    I don't think they hide it at all... I think we just don't see governments in the West with the same eyes, sort of like the same effect that happens when watching Vic Mackey or Tony Soprano, and rooting for them fully knowing how morally depleted they are as humans.
    - spwa4 1y ago
      This is moral absolutist thinking. Either you're 100% good or 100% evil and there is nothing in between. Under that thinking, of course, everyone (except, of course, the speaker and friends) is evil and can be accused and held responsible, for their "moral failings". Oh and you ESPECIALLY don't get to defend anyone with practical arguments, for example, that it is a lot harder for a government that does not have tons and tons of (to them) free natural resources money, like Saudi Arabia (they don't even extract it themselves) to avoid moral problems, and problems in general than it is for, say America. That a country that has to do things itself, just to make a random example, defend it's shores against drugs (and shoot at people who try to ...) has to make a lot of moral compromises (like, perhaps, shooting at criminals trying to flee in a boat) that Saudi Arabia doesn't have to make. Many countries, like Saudi Arabia, always get a free pass, because "you can't expect them to adhere to ..." when in fact it would be SO much easier for them to have a perfect human rights record, no poverty, extremely liberal societies, ... than it is for the US (because incomes in Saudi Arabia largely does not derive from having Saudi Arabians work, so there's no need to force them to. America shoots at people so Saudi Arabia can export it's oil, ...) The fact is most non-Western governments (like Saudi Arabia, but they're middle of the boat at best in evilness) don't have the interests of people in mind at all. Regardless if "people" means Saudi Arabian people, people who live in Saudi Arabia including foreignors, or women, or children for that matter. AT BEST, they are like Western companies, at worst ... you can imagine. That a government with the financial means of Saudi Arabia fails here should be 10x worse than similar failings on, for example the US's part (but same for, say, Denmark). But the root cause is simple: the Saudi government is not there to benefit the people there, it benefits itself only. In other words: these dictatorships are MUCH worse and have MUCH more serious moral failings than the US.
      - 1y ago
  - ath3nd 1y ago
    Western countries support Israel in the genocide they do on Palestine, and violently quash protests against climate change or said genocide in Palestine. But at the same time we need to call out all evil, including the one happening in Saudi Arabia.
    - matthewdgreen 1y ago
      Western governments still allow you to post comments criticizing these things. But we’re on the knife edge of authoritarianism. A few more “everyone is equally bad” elections and that will be gone too.
  - victorbjorklund 1y ago
    tell us more about the journalists chopped up to pieces in the finish embassay by the finish government.
    - SanjayMehta 1y ago
      There was this chap called Julian Assange who was framed by the Swedish government and then involuntarily incarcerated in an embassy in London. Close enough?
      - victorbjorklund 1y ago
        Oh really? He was chopped up to pieces by the Swedish govt? Or did he hide in an embassy to avoid a rape investigation (of course you believe women just lie about rape)?
      - ath3nd 1y ago
        The fact that the West persecuted Assange for exposing their crimes against humanity doesn't give right to Saudi Arabia to kill its journalists with impunity either. Surely crimes against humanity and violating human rights can be done by multiple governments, as Netanyahu's genocide against the Palestinians can coexist at the same time as MBS's chopping of journalists and illegal incarcerations.
        SanjayMehta 1y ago
        Again with the relativistic moral blah blah. Who are you to impose your moral system on any one else? Why is it so hard for westerners to mind their own business?
    - v5v3 1y ago
      In the UK a MI5 worker was found in a holdall,which was in the bath and padlocked. https://metro.co.uk/2024/02/08/ex-mi5-officer-this-verdict-spy-bag-mystery-20247130/ https://metro.co.uk/2024/02/08/ex-mi5-officer-this-verdict-s...
- thomassmith65 1y ago
  What would a boycott against Saudi Arabia actually accomplish? The quickest path to a Saudi Arabia that doesn't abuse human rights is probably the path they're already on.
  - TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
    What will ignoring climate change actually accomplish? There is "Not my problem" here, because one or way another it will be your problem within ten years, maybe five. And for some people here and reading this, within a few months. Your choices about what to work now on affect your future, in a very direct, literal, potentially fatal way. That's the point.
    - thomassmith65 1y ago
      MBS already wants to modernize and liberalize Saudi Arabia. This is for economic reasons, and, I would guess, also because his macabre reputation is a drag when he's partying with his Western friends. Any boycott that would get Saudi Arabia more humane government would be a good boycott. It just seems more likely that sanctions would wreck their economy and lead to a religious fanatic taking over.
      - sam_lowry_ 1y ago
        Mohammed bin Salman? He is probably a complex man, but by accident of history the only thing we know about him is the killing of Khashoggi and the gnarly details of the body disposal process.
        thomassmith65 1y ago
        That's the one, unfortunately. In Saudi Arabia, if you're not someone he wants to torture or kill, you can enjoy increased religious freedoms, gender equality, and international ties. It's a bit like Iran before the revolution: the Shah was liberalizing and modernizing his nation, while at the same using SAVAK to torture his opposition.
- SanjayMehta 1y ago
  Why? Is this the new version of the WMB?
  - ath3nd 1y ago
    Cause chopping journalists into pieces is evil, same as attacking your political enemies like what all the douche dictators like MBS, Trump, Putin, Stalin, Netanyahu and many other evil people do. We are calling this out. What is wrong with that?
    - SanjayMehta 1y ago
      [flagged]
0rzech 1y ago
> Leave them alone Well, this is what the article proposes to architects indeed.

perlgeek 1y ago

Hugged to death, use https://archive.is/1JT24 https://archive.is/1JT24 instead

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

dangus 1y ago

How many democratic countries have never had some kind of involvement in imperialism, slavery, monarchy, starting wars, etc? How many are still doing it? I don’t really think that individuals need to feel especially bad for getting work where there’s work. Some jobs just inherently involve asshole clients. If your job is to stitch the leather interiors for Rolls Royce, 100% of your customers are assholes. I don’t think that means you should stop doing that job and flip burgers instead.

engineer_22 1y ago

It's my belief that architects such as our author have far too much free time on their hands.

1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago

Works where archive.is is blocked, no CAPTCHA, no Javascript required, no https://top-fwz1.mail.ru/js/code.js https://top-fwz1.mail.ru/js/code.js, no Google Analytics cookie: https://web.archive.org/web/20241216122438if_/https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-saudi-arabia https://web.archive.org/web/20241216122438if_/https://www.ar...