6 ms·

While this is impressive, it still doesn't come anywhere close to solving the problem. It can only be used for commuting and local trips. I regularly travel 450

While this is impressive, it still doesn't come anywhere close to solving the problem. It can only be used for commuting and local trips. I regularly travel 450+ miles to visit family. Cannot use this. If you can improve the infrastructure with the charging stations it helps, but still doesn't work. I might be willing to stop for 30 minutes once, but not twice. I can eat a meal while it charges the first time, but as that charge still wouldn't be enough, i guess i just have to twiddle my thumbs for the second 30 minute stop. Adding an hour to my 6.5 hour drive is not something I'd enjoy. Don't get me wrong, this is awesome for filling the commute hole, but many many people use their cars for longer trips as well. Until you can make it viable for both I'm not spending many tens of thousands of dollars on it.

cstejerean 14y ago
I would expect the number of people that routinely drive 450 mile trips to be greatly outnumbered by those that don't. There is also the option of renting a car for the weekend for those few occasions when you want to take a roadtrip.
- jarito 14y ago
  Good luck with that. Renting a car for a weekend drive is crazy expensive and varies widely depending on location, time of year, etc. Asking people to pay an unpredictable several hundred dollars for the rental, then pay for gas, several times a year, is not going to work. I'd focus on 2+ car households. I would love to have an electric that doesn't suck and another car for the wife, traveling, hauling kids, etc. The Tesla doesn't work for me in this case because of its price and the other EVs are not interesting enough for me, but hopefully that will change as the prices come down and the tech spreads out.
  - clarky07 14y ago
    Yeah you can maybe make it work for a 2 car household getting 1 electric. I agree that renting is not even close to a reasonable option.
    - pyoung 14y ago
      I am not sure I agree with that. If you think about it, the gas costs for your trip are a wash, because you would be spending that money either way. However, with the amount of money that you saved on fuel with an electric (a few thousand dollars a year, roughly), that could offset the cost of renting a car for your long weekend trip (a few hundred dollars). I do agree with you that the Tesla is not a mass market vehicle yet. But not because of the 450-mile trip issue. It is because most people/families should not (or cannot) be buying a $50,000 car, even if it means saving a few thousand dollars a year in fuel costs. It would take too long (if ever) to break even on the increased cost. Once EV's get down to more competitive prices, then it starts making more sense. However, if you have the cash, and you like the idea of the Tesla, then yes you should go for it, because without early adopters, Tesla could end up folding.
  - runako 14y ago
    I agree with your conclusion that the Model S isn't for everyone. It sounds like you're not in the Model S market segment. Folks that can buy cars in the $50k-$80k range typically wouldn't balk at the cost of renting a car for the weekend. The hassle, maybe, but not the cost. There are also lots of folks & places whose weekend trips are inside the range of the Model S (consider Boston -> Martha's Vineyard, or Manhattan to The Hamptons for instance).
    - clarky07 14y ago
      To a point this makes sense, but I think you underestimate how many people greatly overspend on cars, and how many people have big car payments as a result. The extra cost can definitely come into play here, at least on the low end of the range. Lots of people spend 35-50k on cars which is what most of these electric cars cost. Obviously this excludes the roadster. I assume anyone buying that has plenty of money and they aren't buying it for roadtrips. Or taking roadtrips for that matter. I'm discussing electric cars in general and saying that, while tesla has made something better than everyone else, it still isn't good enough.
  - waterlesscloud 14y ago
    You're really overstating the situation. There are any number of two car households where one car is unsuitable for long family trips. Somehow they exist just fine.
  - joezydeco 14y ago
    Not sure where you live, but in the US you can usually get a weekend special from Enterprise for $10/day (although it's 100 miles a day) if you time it right. If not, a full-size sedan with unlimited miles will run you maybe $50-70. A rental might cost you hundreds if you're looking in the wrong place like an airport location, or the wrong time like a busy national holiday.
    - bcbrown 14y ago
      You mean like the time when many people will be driving a long distance to visit family?
      - joezydeco 14y ago
        Okay, sure. So let's do the unthinkable: I'm going to see what Enterprise wants for a unlimited mileage full-sized sedan, over the Labor Day weekend (pickup Friday noon, return 8am Tuesday). Big car, big holiday, short notice. $179. Still not seeing "hundreds of dollars" here.
        clarky07 14y ago
        i paid 600 for a rental this summer. it was a van, and it was pickup and dropoff in different locations, but there are certainly scenarios in which you need to spend hundreds of dollars on a rental car. Yes you can do it for cheaper, but that depends on location, time, special needs, etc.
        joezydeco 14y ago
        Ah ok. I was looking at your original problem, which was travelling 450 miles to visit your family. That problem, at least to me, didn't involve cargo vans and one-way dropoffs. Sorry.
  - ryanhuff 14y ago
    If you are going to be driving a considerable distance (500-700 miles) in a short amount of time (such as a long weekend trip), renting a car makes sense. I have done so a few times, at a cost of barely more than $100 each time.
acgourley 14y ago
You say, "the problem" when you should say "my problem." Personally I just drive around the SF bay area. Maybe 120 miles on my longest driving day. For the one-two times a year I go farther, I suppose I need to rent a car, take transit. or have someone else drive. That seems like a reasonable price to pay to have the coolest car on the planet for a few years.
- clarky07 14y ago
  If you have a spare 100k "to be cool" then go for it. If I had that much money to throw around I'd get one as well. It's an awesome car. That doesn't however just make it "my problem." There aren't very many people buying any of these cars, so I assume it's a problem for more than just me. The point I'm trying to make, is that if I'm spending 50-100k on a car, I want it to solve "the driving problem." i.e. if I need to drive somewhere, I'd like to be able to do it. Whether I do it often or not is irrelevant. In my case I actually do do it quite frequently, but I suspect that many people don't buy these not because they actually do this once every month or two like I do, but because they want to be able to if they want or need to. Maybe it's vacation, maybe it's seeing family, maybe it's an emergency. You need to go somewhere and you want to jump in the car and go there. With this you can't, and instead have to go spend several hundred extra dollars and a have a huge hassle of renting a car. No thank you.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - waterlesscloud 14y ago
    I suspect more $100k cars don't get used on the 450 mile journeys. They're certainly far more common in the city than on the highway between cities. A $100k car is a very different market than a $50k car. What is interesting, though, is that at least in Los Angeles pretty much every other car in the $100k range is a lot more common than the Roadster. I think I've seen one once. Even considerably pricier cars are more common than that.
  - kingnothing 14y ago
    The base price is $50,000 after tax incentives.
underwater 14y ago
You say "still doesn't come anywhere close to solving the problem". But in really it just doesn't solve your specific problem. Tesla have chosen to tackle for the common case; if they tried to be everything to everyone they'd never have reached production. Don't forget that the Model S costs around $50,000. Most buyers can afford maintain a second car for the kinds of trips you're talking about.
- clarky07 14y ago
  I'm just suggesting that the general population doesn't have 50k to spend on something that only provides one very specific utility. As Musk just pointed out the other day, they are in a do or die 6 month period right now, and might not survive. The other electric car options have mostly been failures. Clearly I'm not the only person who would like to have a bit more utility for my 50k. Keep in mind that you don't get 250 miles of range unless the place on the other end can charge your car for you. You only get 125. That's really not that far.
  - dclusin 14y ago
    Another problem here as well is the case of poor people. They don't have a lot of money and often times have to travel great distances just to get to work. I know of people who work for Stanford and aren't highly paid professors/doctors/lawyers/etc and routinely commute 60-100 miles each way.
    - Locke1689 14y ago
      They'll have to wait. Early adopters always pay a premium
  - enraged_camel 14y ago
    >>I'm just suggesting that the general population doesn't have 50k to spend on something that only provides one very specific utility. I doubt that. Take a look at this: http://www.autospies.com/news/Study-Finds-Americans-Own-2-28-Vehicles-Per-Household-26437/ http://www.autospies.com/news/Study-Finds-Americans-Own-2-28... The average American household owns 2.28 vehicles. The percentage of households that own three or more vehicles is a whopping 35 percent. Furthermore, the most common pairing of vehicles in American households with two to four cars is a full-sized pickup truck and a standard, mid-range vehicle. The latter can basically be a Tesla.
stcredzero 14y ago
I regularly travel 450+ miles to visit family. Cannot use this. What if someone made you a "range extender" module that attaches to the towing hitch? I'd design one on a detaching cart so no lifting would be involved to install.
- clarky07 14y ago
  That might work. If I have to wait 30 minutes to charge (and not even a full charge) it has to have a longer initial range than gas. There is also the problem I mentioned above that the place you are going has to actually have a charging station as well, otherwise your range is cut in half. Can't got 250 miles if there isn't a charge there. Then you only get 125. Finally, not sure how this works, but it seems that "running out of gas" would be a much bigger problem. Can't just get a tank of gas and bring it out to the car. I assume you have to get the car towed to charging station? Are there any other options? Any easy way (i.e. something I can carry) to get a charge away from home?
  - maxerickson 14y ago
    It's slow: http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/spare-mobile-connector http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/spare-mobile-co... (They also have higher power options)
    - clarky07 14y ago
      well, at least it exists. When going to family for the weekend, I could at least have it charged by time we go home. That being said, they'd have to let me have the garage, and we couldn't really use my car while there. Still a hassle, but it could be worse I guess.
    - hatcravat 14y ago
      Hmm... it seems like the really sweet spot for this type of thing is one that could supply power while you drive. If it could deliver about 7 kW (a little more than the mains plug for a domestic dryer or oven or range), it would supply around 50% to 70% of the car's freeway power requirements. That would double or triple the range, from ~250 miles to ~750 miles.
mcot2 14y ago
+1 for this. The cars which combine electric and gas make a lot more sense until we get to at least 5k range with electric. I'm not joking about that either... I routinely go over 5k miles on trips where plugging in for 5 hours would be problematic.
- pyoung 14y ago
  uhhh, 5k is over 3 straight days of driving at highway speeds. It is longer than the distance between SF and NY. I highly doubt that EV's need to be optimized for these distances, as no one in their right mind would routinely go on trips of these lengths. Hats off to you if you can put up with that much time in a car, but personally I would take a plane.
  - mcot2 14y ago
    Let's say I go on a trip to visit a friend for the weekend and his/her apt does not have an easily accessible electric outlet. Then let's say I drive while I am there and then drive home. This is a very very common scenario for me where I might rack up 1000 miles without being able to recharge. I threw out the 5k number as something where I would be extremely confident I would never hit before being able to recharge, not as a number of miles I go frequently.

cstejerean 14y ago

I would expect the number of people that routinely drive 450 mile trips to be greatly outnumbered by those that don't. There is also the option of renting a car for the weekend for those few occasions when you want to take a roadtrip.

jarito 14y ago
Good luck with that. Renting a car for a weekend drive is crazy expensive and varies widely depending on location, time of year, etc. Asking people to pay an unpredictable several hundred dollars for the rental, then pay for gas, several times a year, is not going to work. I'd focus on 2+ car households. I would love to have an electric that doesn't suck and another car for the wife, traveling, hauling kids, etc. The Tesla doesn't work for me in this case because of its price and the other EVs are not interesting enough for me, but hopefully that will change as the prices come down and the tech spreads out.
- clarky07 14y ago
  Yeah you can maybe make it work for a 2 car household getting 1 electric. I agree that renting is not even close to a reasonable option.
  - pyoung 14y ago
    I am not sure I agree with that. If you think about it, the gas costs for your trip are a wash, because you would be spending that money either way. However, with the amount of money that you saved on fuel with an electric (a few thousand dollars a year, roughly), that could offset the cost of renting a car for your long weekend trip (a few hundred dollars). I do agree with you that the Tesla is not a mass market vehicle yet. But not because of the 450-mile trip issue. It is because most people/families should not (or cannot) be buying a $50,000 car, even if it means saving a few thousand dollars a year in fuel costs. It would take too long (if ever) to break even on the increased cost. Once EV's get down to more competitive prices, then it starts making more sense. However, if you have the cash, and you like the idea of the Tesla, then yes you should go for it, because without early adopters, Tesla could end up folding.
- runako 14y ago
  I agree with your conclusion that the Model S isn't for everyone. It sounds like you're not in the Model S market segment. Folks that can buy cars in the $50k-$80k range typically wouldn't balk at the cost of renting a car for the weekend. The hassle, maybe, but not the cost. There are also lots of folks & places whose weekend trips are inside the range of the Model S (consider Boston -> Martha's Vineyard, or Manhattan to The Hamptons for instance).
  - clarky07 14y ago
    To a point this makes sense, but I think you underestimate how many people greatly overspend on cars, and how many people have big car payments as a result. The extra cost can definitely come into play here, at least on the low end of the range. Lots of people spend 35-50k on cars which is what most of these electric cars cost. Obviously this excludes the roadster. I assume anyone buying that has plenty of money and they aren't buying it for roadtrips. Or taking roadtrips for that matter. I'm discussing electric cars in general and saying that, while tesla has made something better than everyone else, it still isn't good enough.
- waterlesscloud 14y ago
  You're really overstating the situation. There are any number of two car households where one car is unsuitable for long family trips. Somehow they exist just fine.
- joezydeco 14y ago
  Not sure where you live, but in the US you can usually get a weekend special from Enterprise for $10/day (although it's 100 miles a day) if you time it right. If not, a full-size sedan with unlimited miles will run you maybe $50-70. A rental might cost you hundreds if you're looking in the wrong place like an airport location, or the wrong time like a busy national holiday.
  - bcbrown 14y ago
    You mean like the time when many people will be driving a long distance to visit family?
    - joezydeco 14y ago
      Okay, sure. So let's do the unthinkable: I'm going to see what Enterprise wants for a unlimited mileage full-sized sedan, over the Labor Day weekend (pickup Friday noon, return 8am Tuesday). Big car, big holiday, short notice. $179. Still not seeing "hundreds of dollars" here.
      - clarky07 14y ago
        i paid 600 for a rental this summer. it was a van, and it was pickup and dropoff in different locations, but there are certainly scenarios in which you need to spend hundreds of dollars on a rental car. Yes you can do it for cheaper, but that depends on location, time, special needs, etc.
        joezydeco 14y ago
        Ah ok. I was looking at your original problem, which was travelling 450 miles to visit your family. That problem, at least to me, didn't involve cargo vans and one-way dropoffs. Sorry.
- ryanhuff 14y ago
  If you are going to be driving a considerable distance (500-700 miles) in a short amount of time (such as a long weekend trip), renting a car makes sense. I have done so a few times, at a cost of barely more than $100 each time.

acgourley 14y ago

You say, "the problem" when you should say "my problem." Personally I just drive around the SF bay area. Maybe 120 miles on my longest driving day. For the one-two times a year I go farther, I suppose I need to rent a car, take transit. or have someone else drive. That seems like a reasonable price to pay to have the coolest car on the planet for a few years.

clarky07 14y ago
If you have a spare 100k "to be cool" then go for it. If I had that much money to throw around I'd get one as well. It's an awesome car. That doesn't however just make it "my problem." There aren't very many people buying any of these cars, so I assume it's a problem for more than just me. The point I'm trying to make, is that if I'm spending 50-100k on a car, I want it to solve "the driving problem." i.e. if I need to drive somewhere, I'd like to be able to do it. Whether I do it often or not is irrelevant. In my case I actually do do it quite frequently, but I suspect that many people don't buy these not because they actually do this once every month or two like I do, but because they want to be able to if they want or need to. Maybe it's vacation, maybe it's seeing family, maybe it's an emergency. You need to go somewhere and you want to jump in the car and go there. With this you can't, and instead have to go spend several hundred extra dollars and a have a huge hassle of renting a car. No thank you.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- waterlesscloud 14y ago
  I suspect more $100k cars don't get used on the 450 mile journeys. They're certainly far more common in the city than on the highway between cities. A $100k car is a very different market than a $50k car. What is interesting, though, is that at least in Los Angeles pretty much every other car in the $100k range is a lot more common than the Roadster. I think I've seen one once. Even considerably pricier cars are more common than that.
- kingnothing 14y ago
  The base price is $50,000 after tax incentives.

underwater 14y ago

You say "still doesn't come anywhere close to solving the problem". But in really it just doesn't solve your specific problem. Tesla have chosen to tackle for the common case; if they tried to be everything to everyone they'd never have reached production. Don't forget that the Model S costs around $50,000. Most buyers can afford maintain a second car for the kinds of trips you're talking about.

clarky07 14y ago
I'm just suggesting that the general population doesn't have 50k to spend on something that only provides one very specific utility. As Musk just pointed out the other day, they are in a do or die 6 month period right now, and might not survive. The other electric car options have mostly been failures. Clearly I'm not the only person who would like to have a bit more utility for my 50k. Keep in mind that you don't get 250 miles of range unless the place on the other end can charge your car for you. You only get 125. That's really not that far.
- dclusin 14y ago
  Another problem here as well is the case of poor people. They don't have a lot of money and often times have to travel great distances just to get to work. I know of people who work for Stanford and aren't highly paid professors/doctors/lawyers/etc and routinely commute 60-100 miles each way.
  - Locke1689 14y ago
    They'll have to wait. Early adopters always pay a premium
- enraged_camel 14y ago
  >>I'm just suggesting that the general population doesn't have 50k to spend on something that only provides one very specific utility. I doubt that. Take a look at this: http://www.autospies.com/news/Study-Finds-Americans-Own-2-28-Vehicles-Per-Household-26437/ http://www.autospies.com/news/Study-Finds-Americans-Own-2-28... The average American household owns 2.28 vehicles. The percentage of households that own three or more vehicles is a whopping 35 percent. Furthermore, the most common pairing of vehicles in American households with two to four cars is a full-sized pickup truck and a standard, mid-range vehicle. The latter can basically be a Tesla.

stcredzero 14y ago

I regularly travel 450+ miles to visit family. Cannot use this. What if someone made you a "range extender" module that attaches to the towing hitch? I'd design one on a detaching cart so no lifting would be involved to install.

clarky07 14y ago
That might work. If I have to wait 30 minutes to charge (and not even a full charge) it has to have a longer initial range than gas. There is also the problem I mentioned above that the place you are going has to actually have a charging station as well, otherwise your range is cut in half. Can't got 250 miles if there isn't a charge there. Then you only get 125. Finally, not sure how this works, but it seems that "running out of gas" would be a much bigger problem. Can't just get a tank of gas and bring it out to the car. I assume you have to get the car towed to charging station? Are there any other options? Any easy way (i.e. something I can carry) to get a charge away from home?
- maxerickson 14y ago
  It's slow: http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/spare-mobile-connector http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/spare-mobile-co... (They also have higher power options)
  - clarky07 14y ago
    well, at least it exists. When going to family for the weekend, I could at least have it charged by time we go home. That being said, they'd have to let me have the garage, and we couldn't really use my car while there. Still a hassle, but it could be worse I guess.
  - hatcravat 14y ago
    Hmm... it seems like the really sweet spot for this type of thing is one that could supply power while you drive. If it could deliver about 7 kW (a little more than the mains plug for a domestic dryer or oven or range), it would supply around 50% to 70% of the car's freeway power requirements. That would double or triple the range, from ~250 miles to ~750 miles.

mcot2 14y ago

+1 for this. The cars which combine electric and gas make a lot more sense until we get to at least 5k range with electric. I'm not joking about that either... I routinely go over 5k miles on trips where plugging in for 5 hours would be problematic.

pyoung 14y ago
uhhh, 5k is over 3 straight days of driving at highway speeds. It is longer than the distance between SF and NY. I highly doubt that EV's need to be optimized for these distances, as no one in their right mind would routinely go on trips of these lengths. Hats off to you if you can put up with that much time in a car, but personally I would take a plane.
- mcot2 14y ago
  Let's say I go on a trip to visit a friend for the weekend and his/her apt does not have an easily accessible electric outlet. Then let's say I drive while I am there and then drive home. This is a very very common scenario for me where I might rack up 1000 miles without being able to recharge. I threw out the 5k number as something where I would be extremely confident I would never hit before being able to recharge, not as a number of miles I go frequently.