6 ms·

UK to buy F-35As that can't be refueled from RAF tankers

44 points by belter 1y ago

exe34 1y ago
Why are we buying further into the US closed garden? Why pay and then ask for permission from "daddy" before we can use our own toys?
- neepi 1y ago
  That will be because BAE Systems Tempest is crawling along with little investment.
  - stoobs 1y ago
    Yeah, with Japan joining, I'm at least a little hopeful that it will prompt a little more positive action from the government to loosen the purse-strings a bit to get things moving again...
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- postingawayonhn 1y ago
  Because Europe doesn't produce anything comparable at present.
  - bilekas 1y ago
    The Typhoon and the Rafale are 4.5 gen, because they focused less on stealth which is just not as big a priority for Europe. But they are very much comparable, and I believe refulable from RAF. That said there is a 6th gen in development, FCAS, but there where delays, which is always the case. interesting tests in dogfighting were done at least : https://www.businessinsider.com/nato-pilots-break-down-f-35-vs-eurofighter-training-dogfight-2024-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/nato-pilots-break-down-f-35-... Now will dogfighting matter? Who knows, but the EU certainly has different priotities.
    - preisschild 1y ago
      > because they focused less on stealth which is just not as big a priority for Europe What do you mean "for europe"? Many European NATO members are buying stealth F-35s because for them stealth is a priority. > FCAS, but there where delays, which is always the case. The entry of FCAS into service is expected in 2040 lmao, definitely not "at present" like OP said. Also the UK is a member of the competing GCAP (Global Combat Air Programme) project > Now will dogfighting matter No. Of course not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_Air_Programme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_Air_Programme
      - bilekas 1y ago
        > What do you mean "for europe"? Many European NATO members are buying stealth F-35s because for them stealth is a priority. Europe doesn't prioritize stealth because Europe uses it's airforce primarily as response and defense. Being able to take down targets long before ever noticed is not in Europe's playbook right now, when it becomes required, that's where NATO comes in. Individual countries buying is their own thing. > The entry of FCAS into service is expected in 2040 lmao, definitely not "at present" like OP said. Yes, these things take time.. Point is the Eurofighter's fill a role, to enrich all the ariforces. It's not a competition between the USAF and European, we collaborate, unless we're in another war, these days who knows. > No. Of course not. I think if Ukraine has showed anything, it's that definite assertions like that are risky.
- _djo_ 1y ago
  The UK government is already committed to operating F-35Bs for decades to come, and these 12 aircraft replace 12 F-35Bs already planned for in the next procurement package. The main reason for getting 12 F-35As is for the nuclear strike role and for cheaper operational conversion training for F-35B aircrew. They're not going to do much else, so the inability to refuel from RAF tankers isn't a huge dealbreaker.
- pjbster 1y ago
  Probably a condition imposed by the US in order for the UK to avoid tariffs or to grease the wheels of other trade agreements.
- Y_Y 1y ago
  > Eagle's answer to this was that other NATO countries would be able to refuel the RAF's F-35A fighters, which of course there will be absolutely no problem with during a period of crisis or conflict.
- bilekas 1y ago
  If I have to give an educated guess I would say it's due to the logistics of maintenance for the Eurofighters. > The Eurofighter’s European collaboration model distributes manufacturing and support across partner nations, and this model lowers acquisition costs for the initial adopters. However, the Typhoon's maintenance requirements, especially for its EJ200 engines, can be complex for operators outside Europe, which has hindered export sales. Given the UK has left the EU, I wonder if that would effect their maintenance costs and availablity, although I would assume something could be worked out given they're in NATO!
  - rgblambda 1y ago
    The Eurofighter programme is independent of the EU. Most gulf states either have or are in the process of acquiring Eurofighter Typhoons.
    - bilekas 1y ago
      > The Eurofighter programme is independent of the EU. Well it's not really when you consider services and materials need to leave the EU which incurs taxes. And as for the Gulf states, who knows but they usually have enough money to not care much.
      - rgblambda 1y ago
        Would that not be covered under the UK-EU Free Trade Agreement or the UK-EU Security & Defence Partnership? And if it were the case, then Eurofighter isn't independent of the UK either, as it's one of the main stakeholders and manufacturers. I think your previous comment explains it better. The maintenance and logistical complexities are being experienced by countries that weren't initial adopters. The UK remains an initial adopter and manufacturer for Eurofighter.
knorker 1y ago
So they'll be ready for Brexit, phase 2, but that's it?
yugoslavia4ever 1y ago
Airstrip One.
mrweasel 1y ago
The refueling seems like a very minor issue. In joint NATO missions, the F-35A can just be fueled by tankers operated by the US. Alternatively, if the UK intends to operate these 12 planes long term and on missions that actually require refueling, they could buy or modify one or more tankers. It's not really an impossible problem to solve. It's also the only plane the UK can buy that would allow them to launch US made nuclear weapons, assuming that they would like to participate in the US nuclear sharing program in the future. Many of the nuclear sharing agreements the US have involves other countries using their planes and pilots, while the US provides the weapon and launch codes.
- varispeed 1y ago
  This assumes the US will be still in NATO and on our side. Given that the US is now governed by Russian assets, I don't think it is even a good idea to buy American weapons at all. The UK should double down on home grown military tech.
  - TMWNN 1y ago
    > This assumes the US will be still in NATO and on our side. Given that the US is now governed by Russian assets Such /r/redditmoment comments are unworthy of HN.
  - JFingleton 1y ago
    > Given that the US is now governed by Russian assets Donald Trump has consistently and forcefully argued that European NATO members must significantly increase their defense spending. He has long criticized European nations for not contributing enough to their own defense and relying too heavily on the United States. Why would you do this if you're a Russian asset..?
    - varispeed 1y ago
      Because destabilising NATO by framing it as an unfair burden is the Russian objective. You think yelling at allies to pay up, threatening to leave NATO, and undermining trust serves Western unity? Putin doesn't need puppets who wave a Russian flag - he needs chaos agents who erode alliances under the guise of tough love. Congrats on falling for the 'if he criticises Europe, he must be pro-America' bait. Textbook.
AndyMcConachie 1y ago
It's not about defense it's about spending money.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- guiriduro 1y ago
  Bingo. This would appear to be a ludicrous waste of public money. Useless planes built by a competitor/potential adversary that can't be refueled, designed to carry bombs the UK won't have full control of, at a time when the UK pretends that it can't even afford its current miserly welfare programmes. Looks like only Spain is the smart one in defence spending and hasn't bought the "Russians will invade europe despite being stymied 2 years in eastern Ukraine" coolaid.
ChocolateGod 1y ago
The title is misleading no? The F-35As can be adapted to use probe and drogue system the RAF uses. https://web.archive.org/web/20120818131239/http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/06/19/lockheeds-comprehensive-qa-on-the-f-35/ https://web.archive.org/web/20120818131239/http://www.dodbuz...
- ethbr1 1y ago
  The title is arguably clickbait. The RAF could order the same F-35A+probe variant that the Royal Norwegian Air Force reportedly did.
  - ChocolateGod 1y ago
    So the author of the article is just telling porkies, because I found out the correct information after spending 2 minutes of googling.
tomaytotomato 1y ago
We really need to up our defence game by not requiring collaboration with other countries or companies. Sure we have BAE systems, Babcock and Rolls Royce, but none of these companies can produce a whole weapon/plane/tank by themselves, without needing another 100 companies to supply components around the world. The same goes with our European friends across the water; to make the Eurofighter Typhoon required hundreds of companies to collaborate across the UK/EU. We need a bit more independence, more garden shed industry and localised companies. The UK has a lot of pioneering knowledge and continues to make breakthroughs but it would be better if we could be a bit more selfish and make our own stuff with our own supply chain. To those that argue, "we live in a global world", "everything is more complex now", "UK defence can't make everything" - are you so sure of that? Just an example - the Spitfire was wholly made in the UK in the 1940s with 200 companies subcontracted from big cities to small towns across the country.
- danielbln 1y ago
  > we could be a bit more selfish Brexit wasn't enough for you?
  - tomaytotomato 1y ago
    Nothing wrong with a bit of national selfishness. We are too globalised now. Just look at how Macron is behaving right now trying to promote D'Assault Aerospace over his European counterparts. Do you write tightly coupled code?
    - danielbln 1y ago
      > Do you write tightly coupled code? I try not to, but I also try to avoid NIH.
  - abcd_f 1y ago
    That's a low-effort jab.
    - 1y ago
sschueller 1y ago
Switzerland this week found out that "fixed price" does not mean fixed price. The 6 Billion Swiss francs that the purchase of 36 F35s was supposed to cost is going to supposedly cost 1.5 Billion more. [1] Additionally they also found out that the Patriot missile system they purchased around the same time (which hasn't been delivered yet) is "not the latest version" and not compatible with other systems meaning the price is not the price that was agreed upon. We also get fucked by the fact that the conversion rate (USD to CHF) IS fixed at the rate from 4 years ago which is way worse than today. Also no one is talking about the 15 Billion that the F35 maintenance is "estimated" to cost for the first 5 years. Switzerland has no alternative, no other plane can be delivered in the time frame needed and the F35 is already late. Many are very pissed rightly so at what the people responsible for this as such issues were pointed out back then [3]. Not surprisingly many of them left their jobs earlier this year. Best part was that the people in charge back then claimed they had to accept the offer now (before a initiative vote on the plane) or we would not get this "deal" of a price as the offer from Lockheed would expire before the vote. And of course: the contract is secret... [1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/various/f-35-costs-were-never-fixed-former-swiss-audit-chief/89591180 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/various/f-35-costs-were-never-f... [2] https://www.blick.ch/politik/deutsche-zahlen-fuer-f35-fast-doppelt-so-viel-das-kampfjet-wunder-von-bern-id18135796.html https://www.blick.ch/politik/deutsche-zahlen-fuer-f35-fast-d... [3] https://www.blick.ch/politik/krach-um-kampfjet-f-35a-chef-der-finanzkontrolle-legt-nach-id17648643.html https://www.blick.ch/politik/krach-um-kampfjet-f-35a-chef-de...
- TiredOfLife 1y ago
  Couldn't have happened to a nicer nazi collaborator country. Germany in WW2 and Russia now.
- on_the_train 1y ago
  Always impressive just how bad politicians and public workers in general are at their job. And they will not face consequences.
Havoc 1y ago
This is mostly just inheriting the weird decision making US side - navy and airforce using different refueling standards rather than some UK screwup. Not ideal but seems like a reasonable compromise to me given that any scenario where UK is nuking anyone will presumably have European mainland buy in. i.e. could refuel there on the way to where you're going. In any case seems unlikely that the UK would ever deploy nukes far away. UK is a regional power and has nuclear missile subs anyway for further out if needed.
Tarq0n 1y ago
My understanding is that F-35's come with a deployment of US personnel that hold the encryption keys necessary to program the flight computers. You're always flying these at the mercy of the US. Not to mention the dependency of modern fighter craft on a steady supply of parts.
- sschueller 1y ago
  I don't believe that is the case however since this is a very complex aircraft the only place you can get parts/service is from Lockheed and they are under US jurisdiction. If the US can force Microsoft to sanction an ICJ prosecutor then they can tell Lockheed to not service an aircraft.
srean 1y ago
A British F-35 has been stranded in an Indian airport for over a week, post it's emergency landing. It's not clear why. Official reason is that it ran low on fuel (a reason that's not been taken seriously). Britain has rejected India's offer of a hangar. So it's been sitting there in the open since it landed. https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/story/british-f35-jet-stranded-thiruvananthapuram-airport-repair-40-member-team-uk-tow-vehicle-airlift-repair-2746623-2025-06-27 https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/story/british-f35-jet-st...
pjbster 1y ago
"I had a guaranteed military sale with ED-209. Renovation programme. Spare parts for 25 years. Who cares if it worked or not?"
Simulacra 1y ago
Kind of a misleading title, tankers just switch out the boom. If that's the best quip they could come up with for the title it makes me doubt the remainder of the reporting. Such a little thing to hang clickbait on.
- dingaling 1y ago
  The RAF tankers can't just "switch out" the boom, they're operated by a civilian company on a contract that runs to 2035. They're not UK sovereign airframes.
belter 1y ago
Why is this flagged?

44 points by belter 1y ago

Why are we buying further into the US closed garden? Why pay and then ask for permission from "daddy" before we can use our own toys?

neepi 1y ago
That will be because BAE Systems Tempest is crawling along with little investment.
- stoobs 1y ago
  Yeah, with Japan joining, I'm at least a little hopeful that it will prompt a little more positive action from the government to loosen the purse-strings a bit to get things moving again...
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
postingawayonhn 1y ago
Because Europe doesn't produce anything comparable at present.
- bilekas 1y ago
  The Typhoon and the Rafale are 4.5 gen, because they focused less on stealth which is just not as big a priority for Europe. But they are very much comparable, and I believe refulable from RAF. That said there is a 6th gen in development, FCAS, but there where delays, which is always the case. interesting tests in dogfighting were done at least : https://www.businessinsider.com/nato-pilots-break-down-f-35-vs-eurofighter-training-dogfight-2024-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/nato-pilots-break-down-f-35-... Now will dogfighting matter? Who knows, but the EU certainly has different priotities.
  - preisschild 1y ago
    > because they focused less on stealth which is just not as big a priority for Europe What do you mean "for europe"? Many European NATO members are buying stealth F-35s because for them stealth is a priority. > FCAS, but there where delays, which is always the case. The entry of FCAS into service is expected in 2040 lmao, definitely not "at present" like OP said. Also the UK is a member of the competing GCAP (Global Combat Air Programme) project > Now will dogfighting matter No. Of course not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_Air_Programme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Combat_Air_Programme
    - bilekas 1y ago
      > What do you mean "for europe"? Many European NATO members are buying stealth F-35s because for them stealth is a priority. Europe doesn't prioritize stealth because Europe uses it's airforce primarily as response and defense. Being able to take down targets long before ever noticed is not in Europe's playbook right now, when it becomes required, that's where NATO comes in. Individual countries buying is their own thing. > The entry of FCAS into service is expected in 2040 lmao, definitely not "at present" like OP said. Yes, these things take time.. Point is the Eurofighter's fill a role, to enrich all the ariforces. It's not a competition between the USAF and European, we collaborate, unless we're in another war, these days who knows. > No. Of course not. I think if Ukraine has showed anything, it's that definite assertions like that are risky.
_djo_ 1y ago
The UK government is already committed to operating F-35Bs for decades to come, and these 12 aircraft replace 12 F-35Bs already planned for in the next procurement package. The main reason for getting 12 F-35As is for the nuclear strike role and for cheaper operational conversion training for F-35B aircrew. They're not going to do much else, so the inability to refuel from RAF tankers isn't a huge dealbreaker.
pjbster 1y ago
Probably a condition imposed by the US in order for the UK to avoid tariffs or to grease the wheels of other trade agreements.
Y_Y 1y ago
> Eagle's answer to this was that other NATO countries would be able to refuel the RAF's F-35A fighters, which of course there will be absolutely no problem with during a period of crisis or conflict.
bilekas 1y ago
If I have to give an educated guess I would say it's due to the logistics of maintenance for the Eurofighters. > The Eurofighter’s European collaboration model distributes manufacturing and support across partner nations, and this model lowers acquisition costs for the initial adopters. However, the Typhoon's maintenance requirements, especially for its EJ200 engines, can be complex for operators outside Europe, which has hindered export sales. Given the UK has left the EU, I wonder if that would effect their maintenance costs and availablity, although I would assume something could be worked out given they're in NATO!
- rgblambda 1y ago
  The Eurofighter programme is independent of the EU. Most gulf states either have or are in the process of acquiring Eurofighter Typhoons.
  - bilekas 1y ago
    > The Eurofighter programme is independent of the EU. Well it's not really when you consider services and materials need to leave the EU which incurs taxes. And as for the Gulf states, who knows but they usually have enough money to not care much.
    - rgblambda 1y ago
      Would that not be covered under the UK-EU Free Trade Agreement or the UK-EU Security & Defence Partnership? And if it were the case, then Eurofighter isn't independent of the UK either, as it's one of the main stakeholders and manufacturers. I think your previous comment explains it better. The maintenance and logistical complexities are being experienced by countries that weren't initial adopters. The UK remains an initial adopter and manufacturer for Eurofighter.

knorker 1y ago

So they'll be ready for Brexit, phase 2, but that's it?

yugoslavia4ever 1y ago

Airstrip One.

mrweasel 1y ago

The refueling seems like a very minor issue. In joint NATO missions, the F-35A can just be fueled by tankers operated by the US. Alternatively, if the UK intends to operate these 12 planes long term and on missions that actually require refueling, they could buy or modify one or more tankers. It's not really an impossible problem to solve. It's also the only plane the UK can buy that would allow them to launch US made nuclear weapons, assuming that they would like to participate in the US nuclear sharing program in the future. Many of the nuclear sharing agreements the US have involves other countries using their planes and pilots, while the US provides the weapon and launch codes.

varispeed 1y ago
This assumes the US will be still in NATO and on our side. Given that the US is now governed by Russian assets, I don't think it is even a good idea to buy American weapons at all. The UK should double down on home grown military tech.
- TMWNN 1y ago
  > This assumes the US will be still in NATO and on our side. Given that the US is now governed by Russian assets Such /r/redditmoment comments are unworthy of HN.
- JFingleton 1y ago
  > Given that the US is now governed by Russian assets Donald Trump has consistently and forcefully argued that European NATO members must significantly increase their defense spending. He has long criticized European nations for not contributing enough to their own defense and relying too heavily on the United States. Why would you do this if you're a Russian asset..?
  - varispeed 1y ago
    Because destabilising NATO by framing it as an unfair burden is the Russian objective. You think yelling at allies to pay up, threatening to leave NATO, and undermining trust serves Western unity? Putin doesn't need puppets who wave a Russian flag - he needs chaos agents who erode alliances under the guise of tough love. Congrats on falling for the 'if he criticises Europe, he must be pro-America' bait. Textbook.

AndyMcConachie 1y ago

It's not about defense it's about spending money.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
guiriduro 1y ago
Bingo. This would appear to be a ludicrous waste of public money. Useless planes built by a competitor/potential adversary that can't be refueled, designed to carry bombs the UK won't have full control of, at a time when the UK pretends that it can't even afford its current miserly welfare programmes. Looks like only Spain is the smart one in defence spending and hasn't bought the "Russians will invade europe despite being stymied 2 years in eastern Ukraine" coolaid.

ChocolateGod 1y ago

The title is misleading no? The F-35As can be adapted to use probe and drogue system the RAF uses. https://web.archive.org/web/20120818131239/http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/06/19/lockheeds-comprehensive-qa-on-the-f-35/ https://web.archive.org/web/20120818131239/http://www.dodbuz...

ethbr1 1y ago
The title is arguably clickbait. The RAF could order the same F-35A+probe variant that the Royal Norwegian Air Force reportedly did.
- ChocolateGod 1y ago
  So the author of the article is just telling porkies, because I found out the correct information after spending 2 minutes of googling.

tomaytotomato 1y ago

We really need to up our defence game by not requiring collaboration with other countries or companies. Sure we have BAE systems, Babcock and Rolls Royce, but none of these companies can produce a whole weapon/plane/tank by themselves, without needing another 100 companies to supply components around the world. The same goes with our European friends across the water; to make the Eurofighter Typhoon required hundreds of companies to collaborate across the UK/EU. We need a bit more independence, more garden shed industry and localised companies. The UK has a lot of pioneering knowledge and continues to make breakthroughs but it would be better if we could be a bit more selfish and make our own stuff with our own supply chain. To those that argue, "we live in a global world", "everything is more complex now", "UK defence can't make everything" - are you so sure of that? Just an example - the Spitfire was wholly made in the UK in the 1940s with 200 companies subcontracted from big cities to small towns across the country.

danielbln 1y ago
> we could be a bit more selfish Brexit wasn't enough for you?
- tomaytotomato 1y ago
  Nothing wrong with a bit of national selfishness. We are too globalised now. Just look at how Macron is behaving right now trying to promote D'Assault Aerospace over his European counterparts. Do you write tightly coupled code?
  - danielbln 1y ago
    > Do you write tightly coupled code? I try not to, but I also try to avoid NIH.
- abcd_f 1y ago
  That's a low-effort jab.
  - 1y ago

sschueller 1y ago

Switzerland this week found out that "fixed price" does not mean fixed price. The 6 Billion Swiss francs that the purchase of 36 F35s was supposed to cost is going to supposedly cost 1.5 Billion more. [1] Additionally they also found out that the Patriot missile system they purchased around the same time (which hasn't been delivered yet) is "not the latest version" and not compatible with other systems meaning the price is not the price that was agreed upon. We also get fucked by the fact that the conversion rate (USD to CHF) IS fixed at the rate from 4 years ago which is way worse than today. Also no one is talking about the 15 Billion that the F35 maintenance is "estimated" to cost for the first 5 years. Switzerland has no alternative, no other plane can be delivered in the time frame needed and the F35 is already late. Many are very pissed rightly so at what the people responsible for this as such issues were pointed out back then [3]. Not surprisingly many of them left their jobs earlier this year. Best part was that the people in charge back then claimed they had to accept the offer now (before a initiative vote on the plane) or we would not get this "deal" of a price as the offer from Lockheed would expire before the vote. And of course: the contract is secret... [1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/various/f-35-costs-were-never-fixed-former-swiss-audit-chief/89591180 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/various/f-35-costs-were-never-f... [2] https://www.blick.ch/politik/deutsche-zahlen-fuer-f35-fast-doppelt-so-viel-das-kampfjet-wunder-von-bern-id18135796.html https://www.blick.ch/politik/deutsche-zahlen-fuer-f35-fast-d... [3] https://www.blick.ch/politik/krach-um-kampfjet-f-35a-chef-der-finanzkontrolle-legt-nach-id17648643.html https://www.blick.ch/politik/krach-um-kampfjet-f-35a-chef-de...

TiredOfLife 1y ago
Couldn't have happened to a nicer nazi collaborator country. Germany in WW2 and Russia now.
on_the_train 1y ago
Always impressive just how bad politicians and public workers in general are at their job. And they will not face consequences.

Havoc 1y ago

This is mostly just inheriting the weird decision making US side - navy and airforce using different refueling standards rather than some UK screwup. Not ideal but seems like a reasonable compromise to me given that any scenario where UK is nuking anyone will presumably have European mainland buy in. i.e. could refuel there on the way to where you're going. In any case seems unlikely that the UK would ever deploy nukes far away. UK is a regional power and has nuclear missile subs anyway for further out if needed.

Tarq0n 1y ago

My understanding is that F-35's come with a deployment of US personnel that hold the encryption keys necessary to program the flight computers. You're always flying these at the mercy of the US. Not to mention the dependency of modern fighter craft on a steady supply of parts.

sschueller 1y ago
I don't believe that is the case however since this is a very complex aircraft the only place you can get parts/service is from Lockheed and they are under US jurisdiction. If the US can force Microsoft to sanction an ICJ prosecutor then they can tell Lockheed to not service an aircraft.

srean 1y ago

A British F-35 has been stranded in an Indian airport for over a week, post it's emergency landing. It's not clear why. Official reason is that it ran low on fuel (a reason that's not been taken seriously). Britain has rejected India's offer of a hangar. So it's been sitting there in the open since it landed. https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/story/british-f35-jet-stranded-thiruvananthapuram-airport-repair-40-member-team-uk-tow-vehicle-airlift-repair-2746623-2025-06-27 https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/story/british-f35-jet-st...

pjbster 1y ago

"I had a guaranteed military sale with ED-209. Renovation programme. Spare parts for 25 years. Who cares if it worked or not?"

Simulacra 1y ago

Kind of a misleading title, tankers just switch out the boom. If that's the best quip they could come up with for the title it makes me doubt the remainder of the reporting. Such a little thing to hang clickbait on.

dingaling 1y ago
The RAF tankers can't just "switch out" the boom, they're operated by a civilian company on a contract that runs to 2035. They're not UK sovereign airframes.

belter 1y ago

Why is this flagged?