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Every new release or "This week in Matrix" post I check to see if Discord style detailed permissions and voice channels get added and every time I get disappoin

Every new release or "This week in Matrix" post I check to see if Discord style detailed permissions and voice channels get added and every time I get disappointed. I fear it'll never be added at this point due to the funding issues. I hyped it up to all of my friends who stick to Discord that "One day" it'll compete with Discord and we, and millions of others can all finally be happy. I hope that day will come, but my hope is fading.

waymon 1y ago
I'm running matrix with jitsi for voice. No one is gonna leave discord for it though....not yet in my circles at least.
- luqtas 1y ago
  if people actually cared about freedom/privacy, Discord wouldn't be a thing, right? and even harder to leave Discord now when a lot of users invested in Nitro fancy emoticons and profile enchantments
  - spencerflem 1y ago
    Even without that, its just a much slicker and more useable system. I really want to love matrix but at least last time I tried it, the app was very noticeably more clunky and featureless.
  - 7bit 1y ago
    I care for privacy. But there has to be a compromise between privacy and socializing otherwise we would all use letters with encrypted text, no?
    - alisonatwork 1y ago
      Not really, because the security of letters is guaranteed by the state. The security of Discord is guaranteed by some private citizens based in the US. At least on paper the state exists for the benefit of the people. Discord exists for the benefit of investors who primarily seem to operate out of China and the US - foreign countries to me.
      - eviks 1y ago
        > At least on paper But how is this relevant to a discussion of reality?
- freilanzer 1y ago
  I know of nobody who even knows of Matrix, if I haven't told them beforehand. Discord is so much better than all alternatives, that I just don't see why anyone would leave it.
Arathorn 1y ago
What would you say the delta is between Element's current video-rooms and Discord-style voice-rooms (if you go and mute video for everyone), ooi? The only reason Element hasn't implemented precisely the same UI as Discord is because it's not (currently) trying to be a Discord competitor, but more a "run your own encrypted Teams alternative", given that's what Element customers are asking for right now, and we're having to follow the money to try to get sustainable. However, what we're trying to do is to ensure that Discordish features still work, despite having to focus more on Teamsish features. In terms of permissions: I'm a bit surprised that folks feel limited by Matrix's freeform hierarchy of permissions. Every user can have a 'power level' from 0 to 100, and you can then customise the threshold required for literally permission (e.g. you need power level 54 or higher to kick users, or whatever). The only difference with Discord is that Discord lets you pick entirely arbitrary combinations of permissions (e.g. have one user able to kick but not ban, but another user able to ban but not kick, or whatever). How useful really is this in real life usage though? I'm trying to work out whether the problem is if Element's UI for configuring permissions is too basic, or whether folks really do need a full RBAC permission matrix, and if so, for what use case?
- have_faith 1y ago
  The power level model of permissions feels to me a bit overly simplified. It’s so easy to imagine scenarios where you need exceptions to the rule of permissions existing on a single axis that it seems very limiting from the outset. The idea of ever increasing and overlapping scopes I don’t think maps well to most people’s mental model of who should be allowed to do what. People mostly want to define an arbitrary role; admin, user, team leader, whatever, and just pick what that role is allowed to do in isolation. It’s marginally more work to setup initially picking all of the permissions again, but it removes all of the overhead of having to monitor what permissions are being adopted from lower scopes on the power level axis. I also think the power level system makes it much harder to “refactor” permissions for specific roles without affecting permissions for everyone “above and below”
- em-bee 1y ago
  the discord style permissions are simply easier to understand. it's classic role based. you define the roles, and assign the roles to users. matrix permissions forces a hierarchy that is awkward and more difficult to apply because i have to force permissions into a hierarchy. on discord i don't have to think about the hierarchy.
switknee 1y ago
Smells like baby duck syndrome. You're used to what you're used to, and you'll never get used to anything else if you don't switch. I do see what people are talking about in reference to the voice channels though, even though I can't stand them.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- paulryanrogers 1y ago
  Why don't we all speak Esperanto? Inertia. I think hierarchical permission systems are awkward. Role based is easy to understand and setup, even if more complex technically.
  - jimbob45 1y ago
    Why don't we all speak Esperanto? Inertia. Well, also because Ido is the superior language. But also inertia, yes.
  - sampl3username 1y ago
    We don't speak Esperanto because constructed languages work against human nature.
NanoCoaster 1y ago
There's cinny, which is a pretty polished Matrix client that is very, uh, inspired by Discord in its look, that might soon add voice rooms: https://github.com/cinnyapp/cinny/pull/2335 https://github.com/cinnyapp/cinny/pull/2335 I played around with this implementation and it's looking pretty good. Not there yet, obviously, but we're in the ballpark I'd say. Obviously, there's lots more to Discord than just voice rooms and a similar-enough UI. But we're slowly getting there.

waymon 1y ago

I'm running matrix with jitsi for voice. No one is gonna leave discord for it though....not yet in my circles at least.

luqtas 1y ago
if people actually cared about freedom/privacy, Discord wouldn't be a thing, right? and even harder to leave Discord now when a lot of users invested in Nitro fancy emoticons and profile enchantments
- spencerflem 1y ago
  Even without that, its just a much slicker and more useable system. I really want to love matrix but at least last time I tried it, the app was very noticeably more clunky and featureless.
- 7bit 1y ago
  I care for privacy. But there has to be a compromise between privacy and socializing otherwise we would all use letters with encrypted text, no?
  - alisonatwork 1y ago
    Not really, because the security of letters is guaranteed by the state. The security of Discord is guaranteed by some private citizens based in the US. At least on paper the state exists for the benefit of the people. Discord exists for the benefit of investors who primarily seem to operate out of China and the US - foreign countries to me.
    - eviks 1y ago
      > At least on paper But how is this relevant to a discussion of reality?
freilanzer 1y ago
I know of nobody who even knows of Matrix, if I haven't told them beforehand. Discord is so much better than all alternatives, that I just don't see why anyone would leave it.

Arathorn 1y ago

What would you say the delta is between Element's current video-rooms and Discord-style voice-rooms (if you go and mute video for everyone), ooi? The only reason Element hasn't implemented precisely the same UI as Discord is because it's not (currently) trying to be a Discord competitor, but more a "run your own encrypted Teams alternative", given that's what Element customers are asking for right now, and we're having to follow the money to try to get sustainable. However, what we're trying to do is to ensure that Discordish features still work, despite having to focus more on Teamsish features. In terms of permissions: I'm a bit surprised that folks feel limited by Matrix's freeform hierarchy of permissions. Every user can have a 'power level' from 0 to 100, and you can then customise the threshold required for literally permission (e.g. you need power level 54 or higher to kick users, or whatever). The only difference with Discord is that Discord lets you pick entirely arbitrary combinations of permissions (e.g. have one user able to kick but not ban, but another user able to ban but not kick, or whatever). How useful really is this in real life usage though? I'm trying to work out whether the problem is if Element's UI for configuring permissions is too basic, or whether folks really do need a full RBAC permission matrix, and if so, for what use case?

have_faith 1y ago
The power level model of permissions feels to me a bit overly simplified. It’s so easy to imagine scenarios where you need exceptions to the rule of permissions existing on a single axis that it seems very limiting from the outset. The idea of ever increasing and overlapping scopes I don’t think maps well to most people’s mental model of who should be allowed to do what. People mostly want to define an arbitrary role; admin, user, team leader, whatever, and just pick what that role is allowed to do in isolation. It’s marginally more work to setup initially picking all of the permissions again, but it removes all of the overhead of having to monitor what permissions are being adopted from lower scopes on the power level axis. I also think the power level system makes it much harder to “refactor” permissions for specific roles without affecting permissions for everyone “above and below”
em-bee 1y ago
the discord style permissions are simply easier to understand. it's classic role based. you define the roles, and assign the roles to users. matrix permissions forces a hierarchy that is awkward and more difficult to apply because i have to force permissions into a hierarchy. on discord i don't have to think about the hierarchy.

switknee 1y ago

Smells like baby duck syndrome. You're used to what you're used to, and you'll never get used to anything else if you don't switch. I do see what people are talking about in reference to the voice channels though, even though I can't stand them.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
paulryanrogers 1y ago
Why don't we all speak Esperanto? Inertia. I think hierarchical permission systems are awkward. Role based is easy to understand and setup, even if more complex technically.
- jimbob45 1y ago
  Why don't we all speak Esperanto? Inertia. Well, also because Ido is the superior language. But also inertia, yes.
- sampl3username 1y ago
  We don't speak Esperanto because constructed languages work against human nature.

NanoCoaster 1y ago

There's cinny, which is a pretty polished Matrix client that is very, uh, inspired by Discord in its look, that might soon add voice rooms: https://github.com/cinnyapp/cinny/pull/2335 https://github.com/cinnyapp/cinny/pull/2335 I played around with this implementation and it's looking pretty good. Not there yet, obviously, but we're in the ballpark I'd say. Obviously, there's lots more to Discord than just voice rooms and a similar-enough UI. But we're slowly getting there.