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China has been the exception that authoritarian states collapse quickly. It's what the western powers were banking on would happen after they had success with U

China has been the exception that authoritarian states collapse quickly. It's what the western powers were banking on would happen after they had success with USSR. It didn't pan out the way they thought. Not even close.

disgruntledphd2 1y ago
China is much more dispersed (because of it's size and some localisation/liberalisation) and they seem to understand at some level that reality exists and can't just be wished away. It's an open question if they'll retain that with Xi now President for life.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  > they seem to understand at some level that reality exists and can't just be wished away. US and EU seem to have forgotten that, at least when you look at the decisions of their leadership.
- ethbr1 1y ago
  Authoritarianism works... as long as leaders are effective. The reason democracy historically wins out in the long run is not because it always picks better leaders, but because it picks fewer really bad ones. And checks/balances those it does. For all his faults as a leader, Xi has also come down hard on actual corruption and malfeasance. Imagine Trump in charge of China.
hilbert42 1y ago
"China has been the exception that authoritarian states collapse quickly." Why? Because if you check the CVs of most of Politburo members they have degrees in science and engineering. QED!
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  And what's stopping the American people from voting smart people with engineering degrees to power instead of lying loud mouth conmen? Maybe because modern American mainstream culture has people worshiping the "clever" conman who got rich quick by gaming the system and scamming others, as opposed to hard working nerd who put in the long time and effort for an honest enrichment. Democratic societies get the leaders they deserve as they are a mirror of the people themselves.
  - diggan 1y ago
    > Democratic societies get the leaders they deserve as they are a mirror of the people themselves. Don't confuse things being soiled by capitalism as democracy somehow is the bad part. There are plenty of examples of democracies that haven't succumbed to capitalism as badly as the US has.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Which are those? Other than Nordic EU countries, most other capitalist countries on the planet are doing worse than the US when you look at stuff like youth unemployment, housing affordability or birth rates, all things that show economic outlook. Capitalism is bad sure, but so far it's the least bad system we ever had and the US is one of the least bad implementations. Capitalism got a lot of countries out of extreme poverty. Look at South Korea if you want to see true dystopian capitalism.
      - immibis 1y ago
        Isn't it the only system we ever had, besides dictatorship? (Feudalism: a hierarchy of dictators; soviet-type communism: just a plain dictatorship)
  - techdmn 1y ago
    As a U.S. citizen, I tend to think of our system of government as only loosely democratic. There are many, many dials and knobs that prevent voters from having too much impact on policy. The Electoral college means losers of the popular vote have been president several times. The Senate is quite unrepresentative, Wyoming (pop. 587k) and California (pop. 39,431k) have the same number of votes. The House is gerrymandered quite heavily, the two-party system has an immense amount of control over which candidates (and policies) are viable, and our campaign finance system ensures both parties pander to donors.
    - throw0101c 1y ago
      > As a U.S. citizen, I tend to think of our system of government as only loosely democratic. One metric: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
- hilbert42 1y ago
  As I replied to boringg, I should have been more specific. I was referring to China nowadays—since Mao's death and Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms. See section Change from Charismatic Revolutionaries to Technocrats especially bullet points four and five in this link on Chinese leadership: https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat8/4sub1/item2247.html https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat8/4sub1/item2247.html.
throw0101c 1y ago
> China has been the exception that authoritarian states collapse quickly. China has been centralized / autocratic for centuries (if not millennia), and the current system is probably not that different than the Emperor's throne.

disgruntledphd2 1y ago

China is much more dispersed (because of it's size and some localisation/liberalisation) and they seem to understand at some level that reality exists and can't just be wished away. It's an open question if they'll retain that with Xi now President for life.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
> they seem to understand at some level that reality exists and can't just be wished away. US and EU seem to have forgotten that, at least when you look at the decisions of their leadership.
ethbr1 1y ago
Authoritarianism works... as long as leaders are effective. The reason democracy historically wins out in the long run is not because it always picks better leaders, but because it picks fewer really bad ones. And checks/balances those it does. For all his faults as a leader, Xi has also come down hard on actual corruption and malfeasance. Imagine Trump in charge of China.

hilbert42 1y ago

"China has been the exception that authoritarian states collapse quickly." Why? Because if you check the CVs of most of Politburo members they have degrees in science and engineering. QED!

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
And what's stopping the American people from voting smart people with engineering degrees to power instead of lying loud mouth conmen? Maybe because modern American mainstream culture has people worshiping the "clever" conman who got rich quick by gaming the system and scamming others, as opposed to hard working nerd who put in the long time and effort for an honest enrichment. Democratic societies get the leaders they deserve as they are a mirror of the people themselves.
- diggan 1y ago
  > Democratic societies get the leaders they deserve as they are a mirror of the people themselves. Don't confuse things being soiled by capitalism as democracy somehow is the bad part. There are plenty of examples of democracies that haven't succumbed to capitalism as badly as the US has.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Which are those? Other than Nordic EU countries, most other capitalist countries on the planet are doing worse than the US when you look at stuff like youth unemployment, housing affordability or birth rates, all things that show economic outlook. Capitalism is bad sure, but so far it's the least bad system we ever had and the US is one of the least bad implementations. Capitalism got a lot of countries out of extreme poverty. Look at South Korea if you want to see true dystopian capitalism.
    - immibis 1y ago
      Isn't it the only system we ever had, besides dictatorship? (Feudalism: a hierarchy of dictators; soviet-type communism: just a plain dictatorship)
- techdmn 1y ago
  As a U.S. citizen, I tend to think of our system of government as only loosely democratic. There are many, many dials and knobs that prevent voters from having too much impact on policy. The Electoral college means losers of the popular vote have been president several times. The Senate is quite unrepresentative, Wyoming (pop. 587k) and California (pop. 39,431k) have the same number of votes. The House is gerrymandered quite heavily, the two-party system has an immense amount of control over which candidates (and policies) are viable, and our campaign finance system ensures both parties pander to donors.
  - throw0101c 1y ago
    > As a U.S. citizen, I tend to think of our system of government as only loosely democratic. One metric: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
hilbert42 1y ago
As I replied to boringg, I should have been more specific. I was referring to China nowadays—since Mao's death and Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms. See section Change from Charismatic Revolutionaries to Technocrats especially bullet points four and five in this link on Chinese leadership: https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat8/4sub1/item2247.html https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat8/4sub1/item2247.html.

throw0101c 1y ago

> China has been the exception that authoritarian states collapse quickly. China has been centralized / autocratic for centuries (if not millennia), and the current system is probably not that different than the Emperor's throne.