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For that trivial amount this has to be anti-tech anti-science thinking at work. What's this administration trying do, return the US to the Third World or the D

For that trivial amount this has to be anti-tech anti-science thinking at work. What's this administration trying do, return the US to the Third World or the Dark Ages? Madness.

immibis 1y ago
Well, yes, pretty much. It's an observed pattern among authoritarian states that actual facts are frequently in opposition to the authority, therefore, actual facts must be eliminated. It's a silver lining in disguise, really. Such countries tend to collapse relatively quickly because it turns out facts are important for running a country - look at the USSR's fake food supply. Relatively quickly could still be a decade, though.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  China has been the exception that authoritarian states collapse quickly. It's what the western powers were banking on would happen after they had success with USSR. It didn't pan out the way they thought. Not even close.
  - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
    China is much more dispersed (because of it's size and some localisation/liberalisation) and they seem to understand at some level that reality exists and can't just be wished away. It's an open question if they'll retain that with Xi now President for life.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      > they seem to understand at some level that reality exists and can't just be wished away. US and EU seem to have forgotten that, at least when you look at the decisions of their leadership.
    - ethbr1 1y ago
      Authoritarianism works... as long as leaders are effective. The reason democracy historically wins out in the long run is not because it always picks better leaders, but because it picks fewer really bad ones. And checks/balances those it does. For all his faults as a leader, Xi has also come down hard on actual corruption and malfeasance. Imagine Trump in charge of China.
  - hilbert42 1y ago
    "China has been the exception that authoritarian states collapse quickly." Why? Because if you check the CVs of most of Politburo members they have degrees in science and engineering. QED!
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      And what's stopping the American people from voting smart people with engineering degrees to power instead of lying loud mouth conmen? Maybe because modern American mainstream culture has people worshiping the "clever" conman who got rich quick by gaming the system and scamming others, as opposed to hard working nerd who put in the long time and effort for an honest enrichment. Democratic societies get the leaders they deserve as they are a mirror of the people themselves.
      - diggan 1y ago
        > Democratic societies get the leaders they deserve as they are a mirror of the people themselves. Don't confuse things being soiled by capitalism as democracy somehow is the bad part. There are plenty of examples of democracies that haven't succumbed to capitalism as badly as the US has.
        FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        Which are those? Other than Nordic EU countries, most other capitalist countries on the planet are doing worse than the US when you look at stuff like youth unemployment, housing affordability or birth rates, all things that show economic outlook. Capitalism is bad sure, but so far it's the least bad system we ever had and the US is one of the least bad implementations. Capitalism got a lot of countries out of extreme poverty. Look at South Korea if you want to see true dystopian capitalism.
        immibis 1y ago
        Isn't it the only system we ever had, besides dictatorship? (Feudalism: a hierarchy of dictators; soviet-type communism: just a plain dictatorship)
  - throw0101c 1y ago
    > China has been the exception that authoritarian states collapse quickly. China has been centralized / autocratic for centuries (if not millennia), and the current system is probably not that different than the Emperor's throne.
- boringg 1y ago
  Some do many don’t collapse. How long were Mao, Saddam, Stalin in power? Could pull a longer list…
  - hilbert42 1y ago
    I should have been more specific but I thought it obvious. I was referring to China nowadays, specifically the time since Mao Zedong's death in 1976 and Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms which he instigated shorthly thereafter. I suggest you read this link about Chinese leaders/leadership, especially the section headed Change from Charismatic Revolutionaries to Technocrats especially paragraph/bullet points four and five: https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat8/4sub1/item2247.html https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat8/4sub1/item2247.html
dathinab 1y ago
what I would like to say: yes, specifically some modern form of feudalism I guess where the new nobles (as in large companies because in US companies are people) can mostly do whatever they want and the rest of the population is struggling enough to just "get by" to find time to change anything but given that Trump put since deniers and anti-vaccers into power it's probably a much more "dump" reason

For that trivial amount this has to be anti-tech anti-science thinking at work. What's this administration trying do, return the US to the Third World or the Dark Ages? Madness.

immibis 1y ago

Well, yes, pretty much. It's an observed pattern among authoritarian states that actual facts are frequently in opposition to the authority, therefore, actual facts must be eliminated. It's a silver lining in disguise, really. Such countries tend to collapse relatively quickly because it turns out facts are important for running a country - look at the USSR's fake food supply. Relatively quickly could still be a decade, though.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
China has been the exception that authoritarian states collapse quickly. It's what the western powers were banking on would happen after they had success with USSR. It didn't pan out the way they thought. Not even close.
- disgruntledphd2 1y ago
  China is much more dispersed (because of it's size and some localisation/liberalisation) and they seem to understand at some level that reality exists and can't just be wished away. It's an open question if they'll retain that with Xi now President for life.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    > they seem to understand at some level that reality exists and can't just be wished away. US and EU seem to have forgotten that, at least when you look at the decisions of their leadership.
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    Authoritarianism works... as long as leaders are effective. The reason democracy historically wins out in the long run is not because it always picks better leaders, but because it picks fewer really bad ones. And checks/balances those it does. For all his faults as a leader, Xi has also come down hard on actual corruption and malfeasance. Imagine Trump in charge of China.
- hilbert42 1y ago
  "China has been the exception that authoritarian states collapse quickly." Why? Because if you check the CVs of most of Politburo members they have degrees in science and engineering. QED!
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    And what's stopping the American people from voting smart people with engineering degrees to power instead of lying loud mouth conmen? Maybe because modern American mainstream culture has people worshiping the "clever" conman who got rich quick by gaming the system and scamming others, as opposed to hard working nerd who put in the long time and effort for an honest enrichment. Democratic societies get the leaders they deserve as they are a mirror of the people themselves.
    - diggan 1y ago
      > Democratic societies get the leaders they deserve as they are a mirror of the people themselves. Don't confuse things being soiled by capitalism as democracy somehow is the bad part. There are plenty of examples of democracies that haven't succumbed to capitalism as badly as the US has.
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        Which are those? Other than Nordic EU countries, most other capitalist countries on the planet are doing worse than the US when you look at stuff like youth unemployment, housing affordability or birth rates, all things that show economic outlook. Capitalism is bad sure, but so far it's the least bad system we ever had and the US is one of the least bad implementations. Capitalism got a lot of countries out of extreme poverty. Look at South Korea if you want to see true dystopian capitalism.
        immibis 1y ago
        Isn't it the only system we ever had, besides dictatorship? (Feudalism: a hierarchy of dictators; soviet-type communism: just a plain dictatorship)
- throw0101c 1y ago
  > China has been the exception that authoritarian states collapse quickly. China has been centralized / autocratic for centuries (if not millennia), and the current system is probably not that different than the Emperor's throne.
boringg 1y ago
Some do many don’t collapse. How long were Mao, Saddam, Stalin in power? Could pull a longer list…
- hilbert42 1y ago
  I should have been more specific but I thought it obvious. I was referring to China nowadays, specifically the time since Mao Zedong's death in 1976 and Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms which he instigated shorthly thereafter. I suggest you read this link about Chinese leaders/leadership, especially the section headed Change from Charismatic Revolutionaries to Technocrats especially paragraph/bullet points four and five: https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat8/4sub1/item2247.html https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat8/4sub1/item2247.html

dathinab 1y ago

what I would like to say: yes, specifically some modern form of feudalism I guess where the new nobles (as in large companies because in US companies are people) can mostly do whatever they want and the rest of the population is struggling enough to just "get by" to find time to change anything but given that Trump put since deniers and anti-vaccers into power it's probably a much more "dump" reason