4 ms·

Repeat after me and frame this. Never build your main business on somebody else's platform. Always assume that you will get shutdown / rugged when you do so.

like_any_other 1y ago
Yeah, if you want to pump oil, you better also build your own railways to distribute it, because you won't like what Standard Oil will charge you for their trains.
- shreddit 1y ago
  That’s actually solid advice. At a certain point it’s cheaper to build your own datacenter than to rent servers…
- macspoofing 1y ago
  >Yeah, if you want to pump oil, you better also build your own railways to distribute it You're being facetious, but OP is right. For software platforms, this has been a constant. It happened with Twitter, Facebook, Google (Search/Ads, Maps, Chat), Reddit, LinkedIn - basically ever major software platform started off with relatively open APIs that were then closed-off as it gained critical mass and focused on monetization.
  - brookst 1y ago
    And it's bigger than software. This is just vertical integration; both your suppliers and your customers will ask if they can replace you. As they should. If your only value is as a middleman that your upstream supplier can easily replace... well, that's not a lot of value.
  - like_any_other 1y ago
    I'm not being facetious, I'm pointing out a real problem - the market fraction accessible to a new business, that isn't reliant on the good will of some giant incumbent, is shrinking. This time it's Discord, another time it's Google ads/search blacklist, or Microsoft flagging your website or program as malicious, or Facebook shadowbanning you (or charging to show your posts even to people who explicitly followed you [1]), or Walmart extorting you for shelf space access, VISA and PayPal rejecting you.. If your move is to simply retreat, and give up all this ground, what market is left for you? People who get their news and ads by paper mail, shop only at tiny independent stores, paying in cash? How many businesses can survive with ~5% (a generous estimate of the described market's relative size) of their current traffic? [1] https://www.bentbusinessmarketing.com/why-your-fans-arent-seeing-your-facebook-posts/ https://www.bentbusinessmarketing.com/why-your-fans-arent-se...
  - fnimick 1y ago
    You're hardly safe on operating system platforms either. Look at the long history of Apple sherlocking independent vendors.
macspoofing 1y ago
>Never build your main business on somebody else's platform. Yep. It’s a lesson that keeps being re-learned the hard way.
- sneak 1y ago
  I’m sure Uber and DoorDash and Lyft and Tinder and Instagram and WhatsApp are regretting the billions and billions they made doing this. It’s bad advice.
  - macspoofing 1y ago
    >I’m sure Uber and DoorDash and Lyft and Tinder and Instagram and WhatsApp are regretting the billions and billions they made doing this. I'm not sure which platforms those companies built their businesses on .. are you equating build an app on iOS or Android with building an app that relies on, say, Facebook APIs and only works on Facebook?
    - sneak 1y ago
      Without the App Store and Play Store, Uber and Instagram and WhatsApp can’t exist. When Uber came out and for years afterward, there were no location APIs in mobile browsers. When Instagram came out, there was no way to access the camera or photos in web apps.
almosthere 1y ago
Not really possible. If you're using the DNS system or even an internet connection - you're on someone's platform that may want to pull your plug.
lordnacho 1y ago
How are you going to avoid Microsoft, Apple, Google, and AWS? The most common OS, browser, and infra platforms. You have to build on something, and there's going to be a corporation somewhere in your stack.
- adesanmi 1y ago
  These companies charge money for their services and have competitors. AWS’ entire business models is providing developer services, and if I don’t like their offerings I can go elsewhere. Discord, Twitter, Reddit, etc. that have become hostile to third parties have free APIs to reel in developers to make their platform more attractive to users, and once they’ve reached critical mass, they turn around and fuck over those developers. This is because their primary business model is serving their users, and developers eventually “get in the way”. So the person you’re replying to should add an addendum: never build your app/business on top of third parties IF their primary business models aren’t providing services to developers.
immibis 1y ago
Unless you're prepared for the business to last an unknown limited amount of time. Pretty much every business is built on shaky foundations. If you never built business on shaky foundations, you'd never do anything at all. You needed an IBM-compatible PC to use Windows! You need a web browser to use Hacker News. Y Combinator is only meaningful as long as dollars are worth something. If you make a business that runs on IBM PCs, make a few billion dollars, then 10 years later IBM rugpulls the PC line and sues everyone who copied it... was there really a "lesson" that needed "learning" or did you simply succeed at business and make a few billion dollars?
toast0 1y ago
The problem with building everything without dependencies on other peoples' platforms is that it's a lot of work to build your own chip fabrication machines when you just wanted to sell chat bots. Chat bots on your own hosted platform which has no users isn't something people will want to buy. I mean, some people will want to buy it for click to chat on their websites or something. But if there's a market for chat bots in general spaces, you have to address that market where people are chatting, which is Discord, apparently.
Mashimo 1y ago
> Never build your main business on somebody else's platform. Are there any (profitable) phone apps that are not build on top of the app/play store?
- Crestwave 1y ago
  They're distributed through the stores, but not built on top of them, as is evidenced by the fact that you can distribute the same app on both platforms. Android also supports third party stores/standalone installers and iOS is fighting an ongoing legal battle due to its lack of a permanent equivalent.

like_any_other 1y ago

Yeah, if you want to pump oil, you better also build your own railways to distribute it, because you won't like what Standard Oil will charge you for their trains.

shreddit 1y ago
That’s actually solid advice. At a certain point it’s cheaper to build your own datacenter than to rent servers…
macspoofing 1y ago
>Yeah, if you want to pump oil, you better also build your own railways to distribute it You're being facetious, but OP is right. For software platforms, this has been a constant. It happened with Twitter, Facebook, Google (Search/Ads, Maps, Chat), Reddit, LinkedIn - basically ever major software platform started off with relatively open APIs that were then closed-off as it gained critical mass and focused on monetization.
- brookst 1y ago
  And it's bigger than software. This is just vertical integration; both your suppliers and your customers will ask if they can replace you. As they should. If your only value is as a middleman that your upstream supplier can easily replace... well, that's not a lot of value.
- like_any_other 1y ago
  I'm not being facetious, I'm pointing out a real problem - the market fraction accessible to a new business, that isn't reliant on the good will of some giant incumbent, is shrinking. This time it's Discord, another time it's Google ads/search blacklist, or Microsoft flagging your website or program as malicious, or Facebook shadowbanning you (or charging to show your posts even to people who explicitly followed you [1]), or Walmart extorting you for shelf space access, VISA and PayPal rejecting you.. If your move is to simply retreat, and give up all this ground, what market is left for you? People who get their news and ads by paper mail, shop only at tiny independent stores, paying in cash? How many businesses can survive with ~5% (a generous estimate of the described market's relative size) of their current traffic? [1] https://www.bentbusinessmarketing.com/why-your-fans-arent-seeing-your-facebook-posts/ https://www.bentbusinessmarketing.com/why-your-fans-arent-se...
- fnimick 1y ago
  You're hardly safe on operating system platforms either. Look at the long history of Apple sherlocking independent vendors.

macspoofing 1y ago

>Never build your main business on somebody else's platform. Yep. It’s a lesson that keeps being re-learned the hard way.

sneak 1y ago
I’m sure Uber and DoorDash and Lyft and Tinder and Instagram and WhatsApp are regretting the billions and billions they made doing this. It’s bad advice.
- macspoofing 1y ago
  >I’m sure Uber and DoorDash and Lyft and Tinder and Instagram and WhatsApp are regretting the billions and billions they made doing this. I'm not sure which platforms those companies built their businesses on .. are you equating build an app on iOS or Android with building an app that relies on, say, Facebook APIs and only works on Facebook?
  - sneak 1y ago
    Without the App Store and Play Store, Uber and Instagram and WhatsApp can’t exist. When Uber came out and for years afterward, there were no location APIs in mobile browsers. When Instagram came out, there was no way to access the camera or photos in web apps.

almosthere 1y ago

Not really possible. If you're using the DNS system or even an internet connection - you're on someone's platform that may want to pull your plug.

lordnacho 1y ago

How are you going to avoid Microsoft, Apple, Google, and AWS? The most common OS, browser, and infra platforms. You have to build on something, and there's going to be a corporation somewhere in your stack.

adesanmi 1y ago
These companies charge money for their services and have competitors. AWS’ entire business models is providing developer services, and if I don’t like their offerings I can go elsewhere. Discord, Twitter, Reddit, etc. that have become hostile to third parties have free APIs to reel in developers to make their platform more attractive to users, and once they’ve reached critical mass, they turn around and fuck over those developers. This is because their primary business model is serving their users, and developers eventually “get in the way”. So the person you’re replying to should add an addendum: never build your app/business on top of third parties IF their primary business models aren’t providing services to developers.

immibis 1y ago

Unless you're prepared for the business to last an unknown limited amount of time. Pretty much every business is built on shaky foundations. If you never built business on shaky foundations, you'd never do anything at all. You needed an IBM-compatible PC to use Windows! You need a web browser to use Hacker News. Y Combinator is only meaningful as long as dollars are worth something. If you make a business that runs on IBM PCs, make a few billion dollars, then 10 years later IBM rugpulls the PC line and sues everyone who copied it... was there really a "lesson" that needed "learning" or did you simply succeed at business and make a few billion dollars?

toast0 1y ago

The problem with building everything without dependencies on other peoples' platforms is that it's a lot of work to build your own chip fabrication machines when you just wanted to sell chat bots. Chat bots on your own hosted platform which has no users isn't something people will want to buy. I mean, some people will want to buy it for click to chat on their websites or something. But if there's a market for chat bots in general spaces, you have to address that market where people are chatting, which is Discord, apparently.

Mashimo 1y ago

> Never build your main business on somebody else's platform. Are there any (profitable) phone apps that are not build on top of the app/play store?

Crestwave 1y ago
They're distributed through the stores, but not built on top of them, as is evidenced by the fact that you can distribute the same app on both platforms. Android also supports third party stores/standalone installers and iOS is fighting an ongoing legal battle due to its lack of a permanent equivalent.