5 ms·

It all goes back to zoning laws and regulations.

SSJPython 1y ago
I think that is part of the reason. Japanese zoning is very liberal and loose compared to the US.
Cthulhu_ 1y ago
And economic viability; can the owner make a living wage with this setup, or do they have other income sources? What is their total cost of living?
- 1776smithadam 1y ago
  Again, goes back to zoning laws. Housing is the biggest expenditure for people in America and many parts of the world. Housing is cheap is Japan so people can get by on much less.
  - asimpletune 1y ago
    That's interesting. So at least in this sense Japan seems like an excellent place for one to sell their home and downsize.
    - joshmarinacci 1y ago
      That is indeed what's happening. The countryside is emptying out and people are moving to the big cities.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - spacemadness 1y ago
    The one country that seems to do housing right and not consider it an investment vehicle. Unlike our depressing situation that is tearing society apart.
    - ajmurmann 1y ago
      That it's considered an investment vehicle is downstream from the rising markets due to tight regulation which limit supply. In Japan what zones exist is standardized across the country and what zone applies to a given area is defined by the government in Tokyo. This prevents local homeowners to lobby for tighter regulation to strangle supply.
      - Barrin92 1y ago
        >That it's considered an investment vehicle is downstream from the rising markets That's not what its downstream from, that's restating the same thing in financial terms. What it's actually downstream from is that Japan is a fully urbanized society. The reason why Americans cannot implement this is because houses are their little homesteads and castles, Fukuyama used the term "suburban villager" for this attitude (also prevalent in Greece and Eastern Europe etc.)
    - timr 1y ago
      Housing is absolutely an investment vehicle in Japan. It's just that Japan has been economically stagnant for 30+ years, bordering on deflation, and anywhere outside of a first- or second-tier city is effectively dying. Couple that with the Japanese cultural distaste for pre-owned housing, and this is the outcome. If you operate a rental in any area outside of the core of the major cities, you are in the business of charging a huge monthly premium over a property value that is rapidly depreciating to zero. This is fundamentally different than the US.
- GoatInGrey 1y ago
  That comes with zoning regulations. That coffee shop is illegal in most of North America due to being a commercial place-of-sale (outlawed in many residential areas), too small, and not having off-street parking. When you're able to operate a place like that, your fixed costs (i.e. rent) are drastically lower and you are able to sell at lower prices because of it. With more housing, your employees don't need high wages to afford a basic apartment.
  - ericmay 1y ago
    Yes. Also you can look at falling rates of entrepreneurship in the United States and connect the dots with the article. We have some neighbors who wanted to run a flower shop out of their garage. Can't get business insurance because it's not a separate location - i.e. your home and business cannot be the same place for physical goods. Issues like that, while perhaps sensible to someone, are barriers toward economic prosperity. But a new oil change location? Approved, insured, permitted in 5 minutes. Construction done in 2 months. We're really hellbent on making anything but the new highway to the new Wal-Mart and $60 Starbucks dinner (paid over time of course) for the kids on the way to soccer practice in the Jeep Wagoner illegal.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    And that's just the tip of the iceberg. It would not pass a health inspection because it doesn't have sanitizable surfaces. The restrooms (if any) are likely not accessible, nor is seating nor is the entrance. Would not pass fire code for a commercial establishment. And probably 50 other things.
- dfxm12 1y ago
  If you don't have to worry about work requirements for life's necessities along with zoning laws to support them, the economic viability of operating unique, niche establishments goes up. That said, there are probably 0 employees and long hours involved.
  - ajmurmann 1y ago
    Many small business like this are also run by retirees who want to meet people and bring some value to their community. It's legal to run a small business from a certain percentage of your ground floor in any location in Japan. It also doesn't have to be your primary source of income. If you can run it from a structure like this you could just operate a cocktail bar on the weekends. Even in the US I know of a small pizza place that offers takeout only on a few days each month and it's operated out of the owners mom's kitchen. Not sure how legal that is and turning that inti a sit-down place would certainly be an issue.
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      There are specific zoning allowances and health codes for "home bakeries" and that sort of thing (at least in my area).
ajmurmann 1y ago
Yes! Every zoning and housing regulation commission should evaluate every proposal by the question if it enables our cities to be as quirky and wonderful as Japanese cities. If not, it's out!
- jgon 1y ago
  I generally agree with the sentiment behind this, but like many other things, underneath the zoning issues what it actually actually goes back to is cultural issues. For a large number of other countries you could loosen zoning up and ultimately someone would start operating an abattoir next to an elementary school and it would make the 5 o'clock news and then the city council would throw a bunch of new regulations in and the whole thing would be over. I hate to even sound like this, I hate the cynicism in my comment, and maybe the answer is to actually just do it and not declare premature defeat, but having watched how other initiatives in my own local area have gone I can't help but feel that we don't have the real secret weapon that works for places like Japan, and makes stuff like Star Trek work outside of all the fancy tech, and that's sufficiently advanced culture to not immediately race this all to the bottom.
  - ajmurmann 1y ago
    Nuisance-based zoning exists as a solution to this. E.g. you can operate a flower shop but not a noisy arcade. Yet somehow this concept doesn't seem to be able to get a hold.
    - jgon 1y ago
      It doesn't get a hold, because, again, culturally it is very hard for it to take hold. Just like your other response that says "well we should just start enforcing existing laws", the problem is that by the time you get into defining a nuisance in the face of some profit-oriented rules lawyer, or getting bylaw enforcement some breathing room in their workload from the 10000x other calls they have regarding bylaw infractions, you're downstream of the underlying cause and just trying to bandaid things up as best you can. You don't need nuisance based bylaws if people are starting out from a mindset of not wanting to be a nuisance to their neighbors, and Japan probably has bylaw enforcement and its probably really great, but it doesn't just get enforced by magic it gets enforced because they likely have a much smaller workload than exists for bylaw enforcement in my area, and that smaller workload is serviced by a number of people that is probably more sustainable as people generally don't constantly try to oppose any sort of taxes collected and so the department has sufficient funding that isn't at risk of being continually cut every civic election cycle. On and on up the chain I could go, turning this comment into a wall of text as we work our way up the cause and effect ladder until we ultimately arrive at the things a society values, aka its culture. Its ultimately all downstream of a society and culture that either is constantly looking for a loophole to grab whatever profit there is in a desperate race to the bottom, winner-takes-all struggle, or a society that prizes something different.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
jonpurdy 1y ago
There are two great videos specifically on Japanese zoning and narrow streets: Life Where I'm From, on zoning: https://youtu.be/wfm2xCKOCNk https://youtu.be/wfm2xCKOCNk Not Just Bikes, narrow streets: https://youtu.be/jlwQ2Y4By0U https://youtu.be/jlwQ2Y4By0U
defen 1y ago
Wonderful quote. Feels like it could have come straight out of a Pynchon novel.

I think that is part of the reason. Japanese zoning is very liberal and loose compared to the US.

And economic viability; can the owner make a living wage with this setup, or do they have other income sources? What is their total cost of living?

1776smithadam 1y ago
Again, goes back to zoning laws. Housing is the biggest expenditure for people in America and many parts of the world. Housing is cheap is Japan so people can get by on much less.
- asimpletune 1y ago
  That's interesting. So at least in this sense Japan seems like an excellent place for one to sell their home and downsize.
  - joshmarinacci 1y ago
    That is indeed what's happening. The countryside is emptying out and people are moving to the big cities.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- spacemadness 1y ago
  The one country that seems to do housing right and not consider it an investment vehicle. Unlike our depressing situation that is tearing society apart.
  - ajmurmann 1y ago
    That it's considered an investment vehicle is downstream from the rising markets due to tight regulation which limit supply. In Japan what zones exist is standardized across the country and what zone applies to a given area is defined by the government in Tokyo. This prevents local homeowners to lobby for tighter regulation to strangle supply.
    - Barrin92 1y ago
      >That it's considered an investment vehicle is downstream from the rising markets That's not what its downstream from, that's restating the same thing in financial terms. What it's actually downstream from is that Japan is a fully urbanized society. The reason why Americans cannot implement this is because houses are their little homesteads and castles, Fukuyama used the term "suburban villager" for this attitude (also prevalent in Greece and Eastern Europe etc.)
  - timr 1y ago
    Housing is absolutely an investment vehicle in Japan. It's just that Japan has been economically stagnant for 30+ years, bordering on deflation, and anywhere outside of a first- or second-tier city is effectively dying. Couple that with the Japanese cultural distaste for pre-owned housing, and this is the outcome. If you operate a rental in any area outside of the core of the major cities, you are in the business of charging a huge monthly premium over a property value that is rapidly depreciating to zero. This is fundamentally different than the US.
GoatInGrey 1y ago
That comes with zoning regulations. That coffee shop is illegal in most of North America due to being a commercial place-of-sale (outlawed in many residential areas), too small, and not having off-street parking. When you're able to operate a place like that, your fixed costs (i.e. rent) are drastically lower and you are able to sell at lower prices because of it. With more housing, your employees don't need high wages to afford a basic apartment.
- ericmay 1y ago
  Yes. Also you can look at falling rates of entrepreneurship in the United States and connect the dots with the article. We have some neighbors who wanted to run a flower shop out of their garage. Can't get business insurance because it's not a separate location - i.e. your home and business cannot be the same place for physical goods. Issues like that, while perhaps sensible to someone, are barriers toward economic prosperity. But a new oil change location? Approved, insured, permitted in 5 minutes. Construction done in 2 months. We're really hellbent on making anything but the new highway to the new Wal-Mart and $60 Starbucks dinner (paid over time of course) for the kids on the way to soccer practice in the Jeep Wagoner illegal.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  And that's just the tip of the iceberg. It would not pass a health inspection because it doesn't have sanitizable surfaces. The restrooms (if any) are likely not accessible, nor is seating nor is the entrance. Would not pass fire code for a commercial establishment. And probably 50 other things.
dfxm12 1y ago
If you don't have to worry about work requirements for life's necessities along with zoning laws to support them, the economic viability of operating unique, niche establishments goes up. That said, there are probably 0 employees and long hours involved.
- ajmurmann 1y ago
  Many small business like this are also run by retirees who want to meet people and bring some value to their community. It's legal to run a small business from a certain percentage of your ground floor in any location in Japan. It also doesn't have to be your primary source of income. If you can run it from a structure like this you could just operate a cocktail bar on the weekends. Even in the US I know of a small pizza place that offers takeout only on a few days each month and it's operated out of the owners mom's kitchen. Not sure how legal that is and turning that inti a sit-down place would certainly be an issue.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    There are specific zoning allowances and health codes for "home bakeries" and that sort of thing (at least in my area).

ajmurmann 1y ago

Yes! Every zoning and housing regulation commission should evaluate every proposal by the question if it enables our cities to be as quirky and wonderful as Japanese cities. If not, it's out!

jgon 1y ago
I generally agree with the sentiment behind this, but like many other things, underneath the zoning issues what it actually actually goes back to is cultural issues. For a large number of other countries you could loosen zoning up and ultimately someone would start operating an abattoir next to an elementary school and it would make the 5 o'clock news and then the city council would throw a bunch of new regulations in and the whole thing would be over. I hate to even sound like this, I hate the cynicism in my comment, and maybe the answer is to actually just do it and not declare premature defeat, but having watched how other initiatives in my own local area have gone I can't help but feel that we don't have the real secret weapon that works for places like Japan, and makes stuff like Star Trek work outside of all the fancy tech, and that's sufficiently advanced culture to not immediately race this all to the bottom.
- ajmurmann 1y ago
  Nuisance-based zoning exists as a solution to this. E.g. you can operate a flower shop but not a noisy arcade. Yet somehow this concept doesn't seem to be able to get a hold.
  - jgon 1y ago
    It doesn't get a hold, because, again, culturally it is very hard for it to take hold. Just like your other response that says "well we should just start enforcing existing laws", the problem is that by the time you get into defining a nuisance in the face of some profit-oriented rules lawyer, or getting bylaw enforcement some breathing room in their workload from the 10000x other calls they have regarding bylaw infractions, you're downstream of the underlying cause and just trying to bandaid things up as best you can. You don't need nuisance based bylaws if people are starting out from a mindset of not wanting to be a nuisance to their neighbors, and Japan probably has bylaw enforcement and its probably really great, but it doesn't just get enforced by magic it gets enforced because they likely have a much smaller workload than exists for bylaw enforcement in my area, and that smaller workload is serviced by a number of people that is probably more sustainable as people generally don't constantly try to oppose any sort of taxes collected and so the department has sufficient funding that isn't at risk of being continually cut every civic election cycle. On and on up the chain I could go, turning this comment into a wall of text as we work our way up the cause and effect ladder until we ultimately arrive at the things a society values, aka its culture. Its ultimately all downstream of a society and culture that either is constantly looking for a loophole to grab whatever profit there is in a desperate race to the bottom, winner-takes-all struggle, or a society that prizes something different.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

jonpurdy 1y ago

There are two great videos specifically on Japanese zoning and narrow streets: Life Where I'm From, on zoning: https://youtu.be/wfm2xCKOCNk https://youtu.be/wfm2xCKOCNk Not Just Bikes, narrow streets: https://youtu.be/jlwQ2Y4By0U https://youtu.be/jlwQ2Y4By0U

defen 1y ago

Wonderful quote. Feels like it could have come straight out of a Pynchon novel.