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The US might literally just not give it to them. Germany has been trying to ask for their gold back for a while IIRC and they generally get an explanation that

by roenxi 1y ago

The US might literally just not give it to them. Germany has been trying to ask for their gold back for a while IIRC and they generally get an explanation that paraphrases to it being a very complex operation to pull off and they should come back next year. The US has enough leverage over Germany that the Nord Stream incident is still an unsolved mystery where everyone just moved on. Probably the Russians did it. That's a lot of leverage.

niffydroid 1y ago
I thought this has been attributed to pro russian Ukrainians on the far right?
- JyB 1y ago
  Or US/Norwegian forces covered by NATO exercises.
- owebmaster 1y ago
  And what would be the reason in this theory?
- StefanBatory 1y ago
  We do know know, there are so many people who would have loved to see Nord Stream blown up. Our foreign minister for example in Poland, thanked USA for doing so :P I for example I'm happy NS2 got blown up, as it means relative safety for us. Germans won't be able to just go on about their business with Russia in the future.
  - StefanBatory 1y ago
    Of course, that was supposed to be - we do not know, not this. Sorry, that's what I get for writing w/o thinking and I can't edit it now.
- belorn 1y ago
  There are two boats that are under primary suspicion. One Russian salvage ship named SS-750 that carries a mini-submarine, which circled around for no apparent reason in the vicinity of the explosion area 4 days before the explosion. Then there is another boat, a 50-foot (15.4m) sailing yacht named Andromeda, was reportedly near the site of two of the three explosions in the days before they occurred. Traces of military explosives were found on Andromeda. The Andromeda ship was operated by an Ukrainian national, and rented by a company from Uzbekistan, the owner of which holds a Russian and a Ukrainian passport which resident is located in the annexed Crimea. In addition there are around 5 more ships that have been in the area. There have been and still are multiple investigations. Sweden and Denmark dropped the cases citing lack of jurisdiction/basis to continue investigation. Germany issued an arrest warrant toward suspected operators of the Andromeda ship. There was an alleged leaked Dutch intelligence report that implicated Ukrainians that was given to the The Washington Post, but military analysts from Sweden and Denmark has expressed strong doubts of the practicality of an 15.4-metre sailing boat to do a 80 meter technical dive using a crew of 6 to plant that much explosives (over 500kg) and at 3 different sites. As such they has described the Andromeda theory as a distraction and false flag.
holowoodman 1y ago
The official line in Germany is actually that Ukraine most probably did it: https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/ndr-wdr/nordstream-172.html https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/ndr-wdr/nordstream-17... https://www.br.de/nachrichten/deutschland-welt/nord-stream-sprengung-was-wusste-ukraine-praesident-selenskyj,UMqP9VP https://www.br.de/nachrichten/deutschland-welt/nord-stream-s... https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-real-story-da24839c https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explos... Knowledge or agreement by Selensky is unclear, but there seem to be hints. Poland might have been complicit or at least turned a blind eye and seems to have let a wanted suspect escape to Ukraine.
- bluecalm 1y ago
  From purely incentive based analysis I would bet on Ukraine/Poland as well. I am Polish and the news was received very warmly here by both citizens and government officials.
  - petre 1y ago
    The news of the Nordstream bombings was received warmly in most of Central and Eastern Europe, not just Poland. The men and women who carried out the operation are heroes.
    - dontlaugh 1y ago
      I don’t think that’s true. I know people in many Eastern European countries and the general opinion was dismay at a US proxy stoking war.
  - vintermann 1y ago
    Even if someone else did it other than the obvious culprit, it could not have been done without US blessing and assistance.
- pydry 1y ago
  Politics dictated this official line just like the previous official line of "Russia did it".
andy_ppp 1y ago
People struggle with uncertainty so much that any magical thinking they can come up with will do… we simply don’t know the truth on this at all.
- orbital-decay 1y ago
  Only those who don't want to see certain things and mirror the Russian propaganda line ("we will never know the truth"). This case is pretty thoroughly investigated, down to the names, timelines, and interviews with people who did this.
  - andy_ppp 1y ago
    Okay, you’re making some claims here, I’m not saying you’re wrong but could you provide some high quality references that contain proof of this?
    - orbital-decay 1y ago
      What's high quality to you? I personally don't consider WaPo, WSJ, and alikes high quality in this case as their investigations are mostly summaries of authorities claims/leaks and OSINT types' findings with little to add, but here you are. [1][2][3] I don't save everything about this, there's a ton more detail floating around, nearly on the same level as MH17. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/11/nordstream-bombing-ukraine-chervinsky/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/11/... [2] https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/nord-stream-wie-ein-ukrainisches-geheimkommando-pipelines-sprengte-a-7aceb6f8-060f-4d29-9ddd-582dfdaf4ac6 https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/nord-stream-wie-e... [3] https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-real-story-da24839c https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explos...
lovasoa 1y ago
A consortium of investigative journalists investigated and attributed the attacks the Ukraine's secret service: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_pipelines_sabotage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_pipelines_sabotage

by roenxi 1y ago

niffydroid 1y ago

I thought this has been attributed to pro russian Ukrainians on the far right?

JyB 1y ago
Or US/Norwegian forces covered by NATO exercises.
owebmaster 1y ago
And what would be the reason in this theory?
StefanBatory 1y ago
We do know know, there are so many people who would have loved to see Nord Stream blown up. Our foreign minister for example in Poland, thanked USA for doing so :P I for example I'm happy NS2 got blown up, as it means relative safety for us. Germans won't be able to just go on about their business with Russia in the future.
- StefanBatory 1y ago
  Of course, that was supposed to be - we do not know, not this. Sorry, that's what I get for writing w/o thinking and I can't edit it now.
belorn 1y ago
There are two boats that are under primary suspicion. One Russian salvage ship named SS-750 that carries a mini-submarine, which circled around for no apparent reason in the vicinity of the explosion area 4 days before the explosion. Then there is another boat, a 50-foot (15.4m) sailing yacht named Andromeda, was reportedly near the site of two of the three explosions in the days before they occurred. Traces of military explosives were found on Andromeda. The Andromeda ship was operated by an Ukrainian national, and rented by a company from Uzbekistan, the owner of which holds a Russian and a Ukrainian passport which resident is located in the annexed Crimea. In addition there are around 5 more ships that have been in the area. There have been and still are multiple investigations. Sweden and Denmark dropped the cases citing lack of jurisdiction/basis to continue investigation. Germany issued an arrest warrant toward suspected operators of the Andromeda ship. There was an alleged leaked Dutch intelligence report that implicated Ukrainians that was given to the The Washington Post, but military analysts from Sweden and Denmark has expressed strong doubts of the practicality of an 15.4-metre sailing boat to do a 80 meter technical dive using a crew of 6 to plant that much explosives (over 500kg) and at 3 different sites. As such they has described the Andromeda theory as a distraction and false flag.

holowoodman 1y ago

The official line in Germany is actually that Ukraine most probably did it: https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/ndr-wdr/nordstream-172.html https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/ndr-wdr/nordstream-17... https://www.br.de/nachrichten/deutschland-welt/nord-stream-sprengung-was-wusste-ukraine-praesident-selenskyj,UMqP9VP https://www.br.de/nachrichten/deutschland-welt/nord-stream-s... https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-real-story-da24839c https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explos... Knowledge or agreement by Selensky is unclear, but there seem to be hints. Poland might have been complicit or at least turned a blind eye and seems to have let a wanted suspect escape to Ukraine.

bluecalm 1y ago
From purely incentive based analysis I would bet on Ukraine/Poland as well. I am Polish and the news was received very warmly here by both citizens and government officials.
- petre 1y ago
  The news of the Nordstream bombings was received warmly in most of Central and Eastern Europe, not just Poland. The men and women who carried out the operation are heroes.
  - dontlaugh 1y ago
    I don’t think that’s true. I know people in many Eastern European countries and the general opinion was dismay at a US proxy stoking war.
- vintermann 1y ago
  Even if someone else did it other than the obvious culprit, it could not have been done without US blessing and assistance.
pydry 1y ago
Politics dictated this official line just like the previous official line of "Russia did it".

andy_ppp 1y ago

People struggle with uncertainty so much that any magical thinking they can come up with will do… we simply don’t know the truth on this at all.

orbital-decay 1y ago
Only those who don't want to see certain things and mirror the Russian propaganda line ("we will never know the truth"). This case is pretty thoroughly investigated, down to the names, timelines, and interviews with people who did this.
- andy_ppp 1y ago
  Okay, you’re making some claims here, I’m not saying you’re wrong but could you provide some high quality references that contain proof of this?
  - orbital-decay 1y ago
    What's high quality to you? I personally don't consider WaPo, WSJ, and alikes high quality in this case as their investigations are mostly summaries of authorities claims/leaks and OSINT types' findings with little to add, but here you are. [1][2][3] I don't save everything about this, there's a ton more detail floating around, nearly on the same level as MH17. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/11/nordstream-bombing-ukraine-chervinsky/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/11/... [2] https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/nord-stream-wie-ein-ukrainisches-geheimkommando-pipelines-sprengte-a-7aceb6f8-060f-4d29-9ddd-582dfdaf4ac6 https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/nord-stream-wie-e... [3] https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-real-story-da24839c https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explos...

lovasoa 1y ago

A consortium of investigative journalists investigated and attributed the attacks the Ukraine's secret service: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_pipelines_sabotage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_pipelines_sabotage