4 ms·

I am a somewhat unremarkable product designer. I'm great at my job, but still just a guy in a chair doing the thing. And I've been using this advice for years.

by RickS 1y ago

I am a somewhat unremarkable product designer. I'm great at my job, but still just a guy in a chair doing the thing. And I've been using this advice for years. It has made an absolutely mind boggling impact on my life. I recently took a few years off (achievable in part thanks to the OG version of this post), and was worried about returning to the cooled-off job market thanks to all the doomers on here talking about firing hundreds of applications into the empty void. Very little has changed. The market is a bit tighter but still fine. Please do not let the other crabs convince you that the bucket is too greased to be worth clawing at. Patio11 has probably made me 1M+ over my career with his blog post. And it is not because I'm some mega genius. I am merely good enough at my job to be worth wanting on a normal team. If you aren't that, fix that. But 20-50% lift on the majority of offers is super, super, super achievable if you're able to recognize what employers value, and communicate your ability to meet those needs. Seriously. So frustrating to see how many people are here telling others this is BS and not to try. Fuck that. At least *try*.

hackitup7 1y ago
Thank you for writing this. I am an employer and see versions of the advice / similar techniques to patio11's post put into practice by candidates (ie used against us) with some regularity. It doesn't always work, and we try to be disciplined, but it helps fairly often and at worst does no harm as long as you're polite. I strongly encourage people to read the post and not give up because of the unrelenting cynicism in these comments.
- goodcanadian 1y ago
  Yes, I have declined two job offers because they were unwilling to move on salary (among other things), but I have never had a job offer rescinded for bringing the issue up.
patio11 1y ago
Internet fist bump.
jiveturkey 1y ago
> The market is a bit tighter but still fine. You're wrong. You got lucky, that's all. You're also a product designer, not a SWE which most of us are.
bravesoul2 1y ago
Does this work outside the US? In crappier markets it feels like there just ain't high money jobs. Like a US graduate engineer earns more than a 20ye ceo in other countries. Yeah I can negotiate another 10k but I ain't earning millions more over a decade.
- lentil_soup 1y ago
  It works but relative to the local rates of course. Although you can try and get a remote job for an US company
  - bravesoul2 1y ago
    I negotiate but last move I only squeezed 5% and didn't want to lie about another offer. Timing another offer was not possible. Flipside I am getting some good experience that can lead to better work.
    - lentil_soup 1y ago
      that's alright! a 5% is infinite times better than 0% ;) Will probably not make you a millionaire but it put you in a better position than without it. I'd recommend not getting stressed about people getting a million% extra, if the story really is true they're outliers and there's a natural bias for those stories to surface faster (or there's more to the story). In my case, as I've gained experience that percentage has increased, specially when prioritising good experience over just pay at the beginning.
      - bravesoul2 1y ago
        Thanks! Though I'm closer to the end of my career than the start and now at the point I'm maxxed out what I can earn and it is approx graduate salary in US but no cheaper COL. I need to find how to pivot. Don't want to be a manager though. Craft path (e.g. staff developer) feels thin at the top, I.e. musical chairs ... not enough seating for the demand! Therefore giving up the working for someone else game it has to be.
mixmastamyk 1y ago
Thanks. I haven’t had an interview this year despite twenty+ years experience, and am great at my job too. Glad to know it’s just me. I will definitely try once a human deigns to speak with me.
sailingparrot 1y ago
> The market is a bit tighter but still fine. Telling others how “the market” is when you only have your very limited subjective and anecdotal experience to share is a bit bold, and probably dispiriting to read for others that do not have the same experience. Do you really have a stat sig number of interviews and offer to say that the market merely tightened a bit? Are all the people here reporting a shift in their ability to get a job in the last year not even good enough to pass the bar in a normal team ? I share your experience of having had no issue, but we have to recognize that our specific role, history, location, network, sales skills and luck all play a role, and may not be a general rule.
- jstummbillig 1y ago
  > Telling others how “the market” is when you only have your very limited subjective and anecdotal experience to share is a bit bold Aren't people that complain about this not being possible not doing exactly the same? Maybe we can land on: This is a comment section. People bring their own views of things. The anchor here is Patricks ideas. I am not sure if his data raises to the level of statistical significance, but it's clearly not nothing and, unless he is outright lying, seems to yield significant positive results. What people in this thread offer on the other end is fairly light, ignores a lot of Patricks advice, tries to make special cases where there are none, and is really a lot of regular grade negativity and excuses – and then claiming that the advice does not work, when, what they really mean is: I really do not want any advice, because I am a grown up person and it would be super uncomfortable to admit to myself that I have done this wrong over potentially many, many years.
ErigmolCt 1y ago
Just being good at your job, knowing your value, and being willing to have the conversation moves the needle way more than folks think
- alt227 1y ago
  > Knowing your value This is, in my experience, the biggest aspect of the whole process. If you go into a raise negotitation undervaluing yourself, you are always going to come out short. By looking at my role, how I help the company, and what it would take for them to replace my skillset (including training and learning company policies/procedures etc) I have massively improved my confidence in this area and been able to consistently negotiate much bigger raises. Most companies would much rather throw $10-20k at a small problem to make it go away, instead of going through the hassle of a new hire and everything that goes with it.
sneak 1y ago
> But 20-50% lift on the majority of offers is super, super, super achievable …and, CRITICALLY, as Patrick’s article points out, it compounds each time you switch jobs. This makes it absolutely huge over your lifetime.

by RickS 1y ago

hackitup7 1y ago

Thank you for writing this. I am an employer and see versions of the advice / similar techniques to patio11's post put into practice by candidates (ie used against us) with some regularity. It doesn't always work, and we try to be disciplined, but it helps fairly often and at worst does no harm as long as you're polite. I strongly encourage people to read the post and not give up because of the unrelenting cynicism in these comments.

goodcanadian 1y ago
Yes, I have declined two job offers because they were unwilling to move on salary (among other things), but I have never had a job offer rescinded for bringing the issue up.

patio11 1y ago

Internet fist bump.

jiveturkey 1y ago

> The market is a bit tighter but still fine. You're wrong. You got lucky, that's all. You're also a product designer, not a SWE which most of us are.

bravesoul2 1y ago

Does this work outside the US? In crappier markets it feels like there just ain't high money jobs. Like a US graduate engineer earns more than a 20ye ceo in other countries. Yeah I can negotiate another 10k but I ain't earning millions more over a decade.

lentil_soup 1y ago
It works but relative to the local rates of course. Although you can try and get a remote job for an US company
- bravesoul2 1y ago
  I negotiate but last move I only squeezed 5% and didn't want to lie about another offer. Timing another offer was not possible. Flipside I am getting some good experience that can lead to better work.
  - lentil_soup 1y ago
    that's alright! a 5% is infinite times better than 0% ;) Will probably not make you a millionaire but it put you in a better position than without it. I'd recommend not getting stressed about people getting a million% extra, if the story really is true they're outliers and there's a natural bias for those stories to surface faster (or there's more to the story). In my case, as I've gained experience that percentage has increased, specially when prioritising good experience over just pay at the beginning.
    - bravesoul2 1y ago
      Thanks! Though I'm closer to the end of my career than the start and now at the point I'm maxxed out what I can earn and it is approx graduate salary in US but no cheaper COL. I need to find how to pivot. Don't want to be a manager though. Craft path (e.g. staff developer) feels thin at the top, I.e. musical chairs ... not enough seating for the demand! Therefore giving up the working for someone else game it has to be.

mixmastamyk 1y ago

Thanks. I haven’t had an interview this year despite twenty+ years experience, and am great at my job too. Glad to know it’s just me. I will definitely try once a human deigns to speak with me.

sailingparrot 1y ago

> The market is a bit tighter but still fine. Telling others how “the market” is when you only have your very limited subjective and anecdotal experience to share is a bit bold, and probably dispiriting to read for others that do not have the same experience. Do you really have a stat sig number of interviews and offer to say that the market merely tightened a bit? Are all the people here reporting a shift in their ability to get a job in the last year not even good enough to pass the bar in a normal team ? I share your experience of having had no issue, but we have to recognize that our specific role, history, location, network, sales skills and luck all play a role, and may not be a general rule.

jstummbillig 1y ago
> Telling others how “the market” is when you only have your very limited subjective and anecdotal experience to share is a bit bold Aren't people that complain about this not being possible not doing exactly the same? Maybe we can land on: This is a comment section. People bring their own views of things. The anchor here is Patricks ideas. I am not sure if his data raises to the level of statistical significance, but it's clearly not nothing and, unless he is outright lying, seems to yield significant positive results. What people in this thread offer on the other end is fairly light, ignores a lot of Patricks advice, tries to make special cases where there are none, and is really a lot of regular grade negativity and excuses – and then claiming that the advice does not work, when, what they really mean is: I really do not want any advice, because I am a grown up person and it would be super uncomfortable to admit to myself that I have done this wrong over potentially many, many years.

ErigmolCt 1y ago

Just being good at your job, knowing your value, and being willing to have the conversation moves the needle way more than folks think

alt227 1y ago
> Knowing your value This is, in my experience, the biggest aspect of the whole process. If you go into a raise negotitation undervaluing yourself, you are always going to come out short. By looking at my role, how I help the company, and what it would take for them to replace my skillset (including training and learning company policies/procedures etc) I have massively improved my confidence in this area and been able to consistently negotiate much bigger raises. Most companies would much rather throw $10-20k at a small problem to make it go away, instead of going through the hassle of a new hire and everything that goes with it.

sneak 1y ago

> But 20-50% lift on the majority of offers is super, super, super achievable …and, CRITICALLY, as Patrick’s article points out, it compounds each time you switch jobs. This makes it absolutely huge over your lifetime.