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I ditched WhatsApp back in 2021 (and lost a couple og long-distance friends in the process), and I communicate mostly over DeltaChat, XMPP (née Jabber), and Sig
by kseistrup 1y ago
I ditched WhatsApp back in 2021 (and lost a couple og long-distance friends in the process), and I communicate mostly over DeltaChat, XMPP (née Jabber), and Signal, in that order of preference.
There are many other alternatives out there, e.g. SimpleX, but many — if not most — suffer from the inability to synchronize chats across several devices.
DeltaChat should pose no problems to users coming from WhatsApp, having more or less the same UI as I remember from WhatsApp back then. DeltaChat is an amazing app, check it out:
https://delta.chat/en/ https://delta.chat/en/
You needn't even disclose who you are.
- szszrk 1y agoThe UI of that Delta chat app looks completely like Telegram fork (client is opensource). Function wise as well. What is the backend for it? It's hard for me to find on their website. If it's also Telegram, than what's the point? I would also like to point out that Telegram has very smooth chats sync across devices because those are NOT end2end encrypted by default.
- raybb 1y agoDelta chat uses email. So you can chat with anyone that has an email address. If they happen to use the app too it'll feel more like a chat for them as well.
- iib 1y agoAre there any problems with the fact that email wasn't created to be instant messaging? Are the messages sometimes delayed?
- kseistrup 1y agoNot in my experience. It feels like chatting on Signal or any other instant messenger, except there are no typing indicators, especially if you use DeltaChat's chatmail server (the default if you just say “let me in”).
- gardenerik 1y agoI have not noticed that problem, the messages are delayed by a few seconds, but not noticeably. Only using chatmail / own postfix though, YMMV.
- tcfhgj 1y agoWell, for a starter you will be limited to what email servers provide, which doesn't include video conferences, which most instant messaging solutions include these days
- balanc 1y agoI think any competent email provider will throttle or block you the first time you send a burst of messages.
- kseistrup 1y agoI haven't run into that problem, but yes, it's possible. One problem I did run into was “allowed number of outgoing emails”. If you use groups in DeltaChat, even a small grouop of say 10 members will incur a lot of outgoing messages. The provider I originally used has a limit of 200 emails per day, so that was a showstopper. If you use DeltaChat's chatmail server (which will happen per default if you don't provide an email account of your own), this will not be a problem.
- sam_lowry_ 1y agoThis is why they provide a choice to use their own servers
- balanc 1y agoThen why implement email as a backend if email cannot actually be used as a backend?
- sam_lowry_ 1y agoThat's the tricky part of having email as backbone technology. It's an old and varied ecosystem. I host my own email server and I am pretty sure chats will be instant with it as well as with their servers. However, some email providers implement various throttling mechanisms. If you are OK waiting for message to arrive or be dropped silently, you may continue to use Google and Microsoft email.
- gausswho 1y agoWait, is that true over regular email too? Say I have a back and forth one liner emails every few minutes? It's competent for the provider to throttle or block these?
- kseistrup 1y agoThe backend is: EMAIL! :) It uses SMTP/IMAP to propagate and store individual messages. This means that DeltaChat it will work with your usual email account (it will create an IMAP folder named DeltaChat), but if you install the app and say “Yeah, just let me in!”, it will create a random username for you on one of its own chatmail servers. It may sound like a bad thing to use email, but it works very, very well. Most people won't even notice. See e.g.: https://delta.chat/en/chatmail https://delta.chat/en/chatmail https://providers.delta.chat/ https://providers.delta.chat/
- raybb 1y agoLast time I tried delta chat they didn't have chatmail so this is new to me. Kinda surprised to find this on privacy policy of the default chatmail instance: > unconditionally removes messages after 20 days Didn't see any warning about this in the GUI or the chatmail page. Does this mean after 20 days the messages on my app will disappear? or just they'll only be available on my local app after that point? In any case, that's a pretty big red flag that it's not clear.
- pepa65 1y agoSo if you don't use the app for more than 20 days, you'll start to lose your oldest messages (that you haven't downloaded to your device yet).
- gardenerik 1y agoIt is deleted from the server only, it stays on your devices, and is also synced to new device when you add one.
- tcfhgj 1y agoMatrix has smooth chat sync across devices despite E2EE, so both don't exclude each other
- kseistrup 1y agoIt does, and I did try it for a couple of years — I even ran my own server. None of my close friends cared to try it, and I preferred XMPP myself, so I took down the server and delete the app.
- tcfhgj 1y agoIt doesn't. I don't know how you can deny it at all, it's core Matrix functionality. Even WhatsApp has sync by now (even if it's artificially limited and works differently).
- gardenerik 1y agoThe UI was actually taken from Signal in the early days[0]. [0] https://support.delta.chat/t/list-of-all-known-client-projects/3059 https://support.delta.chat/t/list-of-all-known-client-projec...
- kseistrup 1y agoPS: I anyone wants to give DeltaChat a spin, follow the link on my HN profile and scan the QR with the DeltaChat app.
- seethedeaduu 1y agoSignal doesn't let me synchronize my data between my phone and tablet.
- BozeWolf 1y agoI run signal on my phone, tablet and computer and they all are synced.
- tcfhgj 1y agoActually, they just receive the same messages. According to my expectations, resetting your computer app and data and reconnecting to your account should result in an more or less empty message history.
- attendant3446 1y agoThe last time I added a new device to Signal, I was given the option to sync old messages. Not all of them, but I think it was the last 60 days, which I think is enough.
- kdmtctl 1y agoIt does sync some timeframe in the recent versions.
- snthpy 1y agoI think this is by n0_computer, the same people behind iroh.computer . If you care about, or just want to learn about, peer-to-peer and a Rust library for p2p that just works then check it out! They have great explanatory videos on YouTube as well. I'm a big fan!
- spicybright 1y agoThat's actually kinda sad you lost friends. I feel like that should be a priority?
- Papazsazsa 1y agoYour (reasonable, human) sadness over lost friends is precisely the moat these companies use to keep you trapped in their ecosystems.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- lifty 1y agoYou sound like Data from StarTrek. You too, with enough observation, will understand the importance of feelings to humans.
- hsbauauvhabzb 1y agoPointing out that it’s a business tactic abused by the company to stay relevant and having feelings aren’t mutually exclusive.
- Papazsazsa 1y agoI am a big Data fan and take this as a compliment ;)
- goku12 1y agoThe context makes a big difference here. Human connections are indeed very important. But people used to manage those satisfactorily even before the advent of instant long-range communication systems. They still managed to keep each other updated and alerted about important events. Today's digital interpersonal connections feel important more because of the fear of losing them, than because of their actual worth. I realized this after having switched my communication media (chat apps, phone numbers, etc) numerous times. Many connections drop off in the process. But people with relations that truly matter always find a way to reestablish it. That flexibility gives you the freedom to chose the communications platform according to your self-interests. And in today's targeted ads economy, those self-interests matter too much to neglect in favor of staying connected with everyone.
- foresto 1y agoI believe Delta Chat is opportunistic PGP over email, so it's not comparable to something like Matrix or Signal. I suppose it might suffice if you have very basic privacy needs.
- danielspace23 1y agoI have mixed feelings about DeltaChat. It's cool that it uses email, but it's also not. Email is a notoriously painful standard to run a server for. I have ran a Matrix and Mastodon server, and I'm still running a BlueSky PDS, but I've never even tried to run an email server, since I know I'll get blocked the moment I try it for having a residential IP, and that it's a lot of work. So most people will be stuck with commercial providers, with the largest happening to be Google, which needs users to set up an app password for DeltaChat to work. You've already lost most users at that point. Other large providers don't work or require setups: https://providers.delta.chat/ https://providers.delta.chat/ Then there's ChatMail relays, which are supposedly interoperable with email, but from the documentation it's very unclear to what extent that is. Not to mention that the possibility of them getting blacklisted by mainstream providers is very high, as they do text message analysis which doesn't work on encrypted blobs. At this point, I have to ask: is email the right tool for the job? With all these drawbacks, it seems it would have been better to go with another standard, written from scratch.
- kseistrup 1y agoI can only speak from personal experience. People tend to have all sorts of reservations against DeltaChat, even if they haven't tried it, and I just haven't experienced those problems. I have tried DeltaChat with my own mailserver, and with Gmail, FastMail and DeltaChat's chatmail, and it has worked flawlessly. If it hadn't, I wouldn't be a fan. This is obviously only anecdotal, so other people may report other experiences. If used as chat only, and with dedicated chatmail servers, the number of theoretical problems diminishes significantly. Using it as an email client and/or with standard email providers introduces potential points of failure, but not more than email to email.
- kseistrup 1y agoPerhaps I should also add that DeltaChat is really just an email client with a user interface that is optimized for chat, and the chatmail servers are just IMAP/SMTP mail stacks optimized for DeltaChat. DeltaChat uses AutoCrypt to provide gpg/pgp encrypted “email” + metadata, and the chatmail servers are set up to refuse unencrypted messages (thus avoiding the spam problem). The optimal experience is acheived by using DeltaChat the way it was intended: DeltaChat to DeltaChat communication, and I'd say that using the chatmail servers is also preferable to using custom IMAP/SMTP servers (whether they are hosted by the big providers, smaller providers, or self-hosted). You _can_ use DeltaChat to communicate to email-only recipients, but it provides for a sub-optimal experience.
- attendant3446 1y agoI tried to stop using WhatsApp, but failed. I even promote Signal to my WhatsApp contacts (if they were to switch, Signal would be the most likely option). I succeeded with most of the people I talk to the most. Unfortunately, the majority of my contacts are still only on WhatsApp (and even less appropriate messengers like Telegram and Instagram). WhatsApp remains the lesser evil. I hope that one day I'll be able to stop using the last major tech service I rely on (at least those that don't allow anonymous access via a web browser), but today is not that day :(
- jjav 1y ago> and lost a couple og long-distance friends in the process This is sad, but also a reminder that nothing that matters should be tied to proprietary walled gardens. All of those are ephemeral. Anyone I care to stay in contact with, I communicate via email. An open standard owned by nobody, so it cannot go away. My email has been the same for 30 years and will be the same forever. If you knew me in the mid 90s or later, you know how to reach me.
- BrandoElFollito 1y agoAt some point you need to be pragmatic. People will call the bad guys "hackers" (should be crackers!), in French they will say "show me the digits" when they mean "numbers" and so on. If everyone uses Whatsapp then you will be alone with these apps nobody heard about. You can try to evangelize them but their friends use WhatsApp. It's a choice between hard core values and keeping in touch.
- pcthrowaway 1y agoMaybe it's different in the U.S. still, but where I live in Canada lately it seems like everyone is on Signal
- BrandoElFollito 1y agoOh really? I am curious how Signal won with WhatsApp. In France (and basically in all European countries, maybe except Germany, where all privacy things are very intense so maybe they use something else), WhatsApp is the go-to app. Not only do most people use it, but you have services that suggest WhatsApp as one of the contact channels. This is not because they love WhatsApp for some reason - rather because people use it (and they want to make it easier to contact them). You talk about "WhatsApp groups for X", never heard about "Signal groups for X". In rare instances, this would be Telegram (but usually specialized groups)
- pcthrowaway 1y ago> Oh really? I am curious how Signal won with WhatsApp. Probably because people are just about completely done with Facebook/Meta. Signal is seen as the best option for privacy.
- BrandoElFollito 1y agoI understand that. What I was wondering about is what created the momentum to move. There were attempts here (including mine, arguably feeble) to persuade people to switch, but Whatsapp is too much ingrained.