6 ms·

Are they going to rob the Western Union next?

lokar 1y ago
The last time I checked western union is highly regulated and actively cooperates with law enforcement to deter this kind of crime. And this kind of crime is 99% of the businesses for these ATMs.
- OutOfHere 1y ago
  What kind of crime?? It's very possible the customer loses the keys to their coin, then blames the ATM.
  - cwillu 1y ago
    The crime that was perpetrated on the family that ATM owner knowingly or unknowingly facilitated. Your inability to reverse transactions implies you're taking on a very high risk and should be vetting your customers very carefully. “But defi!” is not an excuse when you know that these ATM's are used for this purpose.
    - BeetleB 1y ago
      After reading the article, I have no idea what the crime/fraud is. This is a terrible submission.
      - Brybry 1y ago
        https://www.12newsnow.com/article/news/crime/jasper-county-deputies-recover-25k-in-cash-family-paid-into-bitcoin-kiosk-in-scam/502-347e6645-3b92-41fc-bea5-2921a7d7fa29 https://www.12newsnow.com/article/news/crime/jasper-county-d... Looks like scam callers allegedly direct people to use the machines to facilitate transactions that cannot be reversed.
        OutOfHere 1y ago
        Okay, but the ATM is not complicit in the crime. To blame the ATM would be like blaming the bank for allowing the sale of a car that facilitated a heist.
        cwillu 1y ago
        The correct analogy is if a bank is used to facilitate wire fraud, and they absolutely do have to reverse fraudulent payments, even if they're just a middle-man that unknowingly facilitated the fraud, even if they did their due diligence. “But crypto!” is irrelevant; don't engage in providing high-risk services without looking into what the risks actually are and who is legally responsible for absorbing them.
    - OutOfHere 1y ago
      Based on your argument, crypto exchanges would similarly be engaging in crime, but in reality they aren't. In the same way, there is no evidence of any crime here except for the robbery performed by Texas.
      - cwillu 1y ago
        I didn't say they were engaging in crime, I said they are facilitating it, and crypto exchanges absolutely are.
    - switknee 1y ago
      Gift cards are much more commonly used for scams, because your grandma knows how to buy gift cards. The difference is that gift cards are very profitable to big chain stores, whereas cryptocurrency presents a threat to the status quo. Police in the USA also get to keep any unaccounted for cash or crypto they find in a search, so there's an added incentive to target the ATM. Does western union reverse transactions? To my knowledge, they do not. Yes they co-operate with police, but so do licensed bitcoin ATM operators. Also "defi" is just ponzi schemes. The only real use for crypto has been using it as money. People buy recreational drugs, yes. They also buy medicine, data privacy services, or donate to political causes that their government makes it risky to associate with. Depending on the coin it has the valued properties of being permissionless (can't be debanked), stable (USD-tether compared to local tin-pot currency), anonymous (monero). You may be lucky enough to have access to lots of stable currency which you can keep in a reliable bank account in a country that lets you buy everything you need, but don't make the mistake of believing that's the case for everybody. It makes a lot of sense to seek ways to stop the scams. Distrust is expensive in a society. Targeting the money changers is certainly an idea, we'll see if it works. I predict nothing will change until the people who are running the fraud operations actually go to prison.
      - cwillu 1y ago
        And stores limit the amount of giftcards that they will sell to a customer in a day, for exactly this reason.
        lokar 1y ago
        And Walmart does the same thing, and faces gov regulation and fines: https://www.propublica.org/article/walmart-financial-services-became-fraud-magnet-gift-cards-money-laundering https://www.propublica.org/article/walmart-financial-service... The rule is applied fairly evenly imo
      - cwillu 1y ago
        And regarding “Does western union reverse transactions?”: https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/refunds/western-union-refunds https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/refunds/western-union-refund... “What is this case about? For years, many people who lost money to scams sent their payment through a Western Union wire transfer. Scammers contacted people and promised prizes, loans, jobs, discounted products or other financial rewards in exchange for money upfront. They also pretended to be family members in need of cash, or law enforcement officers demanding payment. The scammers told people to send money through Western Union. No one received the cash, prizes or services they were promised. Because of joint investigations by the FTC, the Justice Department, and the U. S. Postal Inspection Service, Western Union agreed to pay $586 million and admitted to aiding and abetting wire fraud. The Justice Department is now using that money to provide refunds to people who were tricked into using Western Union to pay scammers.” https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2017/01/western-union-admits-anti-money-laundering-violations-settles-consumer-fraud-charges-forfeits-586 https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2017/01/... “In its agreement with the Justice Department, Western Union admits to criminal violations including willfully failing to maintain an effective anti-money laundering program and aiding and abetting wire fraud.”
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
cwillu 1y ago
These “ATM”'s exist to facilitate scamming people; the most charitable I'm willing to be towards the provider is that they know they're engaging in providing a very high-risk service and need to be prepared to eat the costs of fraud if they can't reverse transactions, just like any other provider of high-risk financial services.

The last time I checked western union is highly regulated and actively cooperates with law enforcement to deter this kind of crime. And this kind of crime is 99% of the businesses for these ATMs.

OutOfHere 1y ago
What kind of crime?? It's very possible the customer loses the keys to their coin, then blames the ATM.
- cwillu 1y ago
  The crime that was perpetrated on the family that ATM owner knowingly or unknowingly facilitated. Your inability to reverse transactions implies you're taking on a very high risk and should be vetting your customers very carefully. “But defi!” is not an excuse when you know that these ATM's are used for this purpose.
  - BeetleB 1y ago
    After reading the article, I have no idea what the crime/fraud is. This is a terrible submission.
    - Brybry 1y ago
      https://www.12newsnow.com/article/news/crime/jasper-county-deputies-recover-25k-in-cash-family-paid-into-bitcoin-kiosk-in-scam/502-347e6645-3b92-41fc-bea5-2921a7d7fa29 https://www.12newsnow.com/article/news/crime/jasper-county-d... Looks like scam callers allegedly direct people to use the machines to facilitate transactions that cannot be reversed.
      - OutOfHere 1y ago
        Okay, but the ATM is not complicit in the crime. To blame the ATM would be like blaming the bank for allowing the sale of a car that facilitated a heist.
        cwillu 1y ago
        The correct analogy is if a bank is used to facilitate wire fraud, and they absolutely do have to reverse fraudulent payments, even if they're just a middle-man that unknowingly facilitated the fraud, even if they did their due diligence. “But crypto!” is irrelevant; don't engage in providing high-risk services without looking into what the risks actually are and who is legally responsible for absorbing them.
  - OutOfHere 1y ago
    Based on your argument, crypto exchanges would similarly be engaging in crime, but in reality they aren't. In the same way, there is no evidence of any crime here except for the robbery performed by Texas.
    - cwillu 1y ago
      I didn't say they were engaging in crime, I said they are facilitating it, and crypto exchanges absolutely are.
  - switknee 1y ago
    Gift cards are much more commonly used for scams, because your grandma knows how to buy gift cards. The difference is that gift cards are very profitable to big chain stores, whereas cryptocurrency presents a threat to the status quo. Police in the USA also get to keep any unaccounted for cash or crypto they find in a search, so there's an added incentive to target the ATM. Does western union reverse transactions? To my knowledge, they do not. Yes they co-operate with police, but so do licensed bitcoin ATM operators. Also "defi" is just ponzi schemes. The only real use for crypto has been using it as money. People buy recreational drugs, yes. They also buy medicine, data privacy services, or donate to political causes that their government makes it risky to associate with. Depending on the coin it has the valued properties of being permissionless (can't be debanked), stable (USD-tether compared to local tin-pot currency), anonymous (monero). You may be lucky enough to have access to lots of stable currency which you can keep in a reliable bank account in a country that lets you buy everything you need, but don't make the mistake of believing that's the case for everybody. It makes a lot of sense to seek ways to stop the scams. Distrust is expensive in a society. Targeting the money changers is certainly an idea, we'll see if it works. I predict nothing will change until the people who are running the fraud operations actually go to prison.
    - cwillu 1y ago
      And stores limit the amount of giftcards that they will sell to a customer in a day, for exactly this reason.
      - lokar 1y ago
        And Walmart does the same thing, and faces gov regulation and fines: https://www.propublica.org/article/walmart-financial-services-became-fraud-magnet-gift-cards-money-laundering https://www.propublica.org/article/walmart-financial-service... The rule is applied fairly evenly imo
    - cwillu 1y ago
      And regarding “Does western union reverse transactions?”: https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/refunds/western-union-refunds https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/refunds/western-union-refund... “What is this case about? For years, many people who lost money to scams sent their payment through a Western Union wire transfer. Scammers contacted people and promised prizes, loans, jobs, discounted products or other financial rewards in exchange for money upfront. They also pretended to be family members in need of cash, or law enforcement officers demanding payment. The scammers told people to send money through Western Union. No one received the cash, prizes or services they were promised. Because of joint investigations by the FTC, the Justice Department, and the U. S. Postal Inspection Service, Western Union agreed to pay $586 million and admitted to aiding and abetting wire fraud. The Justice Department is now using that money to provide refunds to people who were tricked into using Western Union to pay scammers.” https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2017/01/western-union-admits-anti-money-laundering-violations-settles-consumer-fraud-charges-forfeits-586 https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2017/01/... “In its agreement with the Justice Department, Western Union admits to criminal violations including willfully failing to maintain an effective anti-money laundering program and aiding and abetting wire fraud.”
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

cwillu 1y ago

These “ATM”'s exist to facilitate scamming people; the most charitable I'm willing to be towards the provider is that they know they're engaging in providing a very high-risk service and need to be prepared to eat the costs of fraud if they can't reverse transactions, just like any other provider of high-risk financial services.